DiMarzio Forum
DimarzioForum.Com => The Pickup Place => Topic started by: Matt_B on May 01, 2015, 10:21:47 PM
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I'm looking to try a pup that's somewhere between the 36th PAF and Tone Zone and I think that would be a Norton or more specifically a half-aired Norton.
The output level on the PAF is fine and I'd almost lean towards the Air Norton but it seems like a lot of folks don't like it in the bridge. I really like the 36th PAF but I'd like something with a little more oomph and midrange.
Based upon that should I just get a Norton and half-air it or just get an Air Norton? Again bear in mind I generally like the PAF.
Thanks.
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At-1
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Eh, on paper I'm not seeing the AT-1 as being the solution to what I'm trying to do so it's going to take a bit more convincing than a 4 character response. :)
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Sounds like Norton, but this is the perfect question for DiMarzio's own tech line, as they know exactly what goes on in their designs as far as frequency response and stuff. Let us know if you ask them!
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If one always contacted Dimarzio when they had a question like then the conversation on this board would be greatly diminished, wouldn't it. :)
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Some other Dimarzio pickups with some PAF properties but more power to consider:
Breed neck
Liquifire
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I think youre on the right track with the Norton. Another one that could really work for you is the Breed Neck.
EDIT: LPBII beat me to it.
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The at-1 is billed as a 36th with more output and mids. The air norton sounds nothing like a paf. It has a unique, hollow tone.
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Some other Dimarzio pickups with some PAF properties but more power to consider:
Breed neck
Liquifire
Breed neck looks too bright and too bassy. It would likely be less boomy than a Tone Zone but not by much.
Liquifire looks too dark and the mids might be too much.
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The at-1 is billed as a 36th with more output and mids. The air norton sounds nothing like a paf. It has a unique, hollow tone.
The Tone Zone if often referred to as a PAF on steroids so I can understand if the AT-1 is thought of similarly but it still seems too close to a Tone Zone to be what I want.
As far as the Air Norton sounding "hollow" that is one word that I have never heard used to describe it. Still it's not the one I'm leaning to for the bridge position.
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Having used everything in question here, I'm going to give you an order that goes from one to the other:
36th bridge
Breed Neck
Norton
AT-1
Air Zone
Tone Zone.
That is also pretty much the order from bright to dark as well, and in order of low-end content (the breed neck is *NOT* boomy in any way). There is of course more going on. The harmonic content of the AT-1 is something that is hard to describe, it is very complex in a way nothing else really is. The AT-1 also has more low mids and less high mids than a Norton, which is very focused on the high mids, and the breed neck to me is like a more balanced Norton. The AT-1 is not dark though. Its....well you have to hear it. No way to really describe it with words.
Also, I would NOT recommend an Air Norton in the bridge, it will rip your head right off.
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Ray, thanks for sharing that information. It's exactly what I need to know.
Looks like it's a toss up between the Norton and AT-1 thought I'm still leaning towards the Norton.
Thanks again.
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Comparing those 2:
1) AT-1: works well with 500k pots, fat vocal lead tone but with some bite on the highs, low mid hump for balls on chords, seriously complex harmonic content. Comes across as having much higher output than DiMarzio's chart would indicate. If combining with another humbucker or hotter singles that like 500k, i.e. Injector necks, heavy Blues, Cruisers, this works better.
2) Norton: High mid emphasis, IMO does not like 500k pots. The highest I've used it with good results is about 400k but that guitar has an aluminum guard so there is lots of stray capacitance running around to darken up that Norton. More like 250k-350k seems to fatten it up and take off the harsh in most guitars. When combined with the right value volume pot, has a very vocal midrange, albeit brighter and not as fat as the AT-1. Doesn't have the complex harmonics of the AT-1, more like what you'd hear on a PAF. Very clear and articulate, comes across as lower output than the AT-1 in spite of DiMarzio's chart, but not in a bad way. It sounds clear and clean due to the brightness.
Combining with Area 67/58/61/54, or similar singles that like 250-300k pots, this works best.
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Try an Air Zone (which is an air version of the Tone Zone) or an Norton, though I think between the two, AZ is probably closer to what you're looking for.
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Try an Air Zone (which is an air version of the Tone Zone) or an Norton, though I think between the two, AZ is probably closer to what you're looking for.
The Air Zone is too close to a Tone Zone for my tastes.
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Thanks for the extra info Ray.
I'm going to use the AT-1 or Norton with a either a Breed Neck or 36th PAF so any combination will work for me.
As for the pot value, considering that I like the 36th with a 500K pot I think either the AT-1 or Norton will work for me. I don't mind bright.
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Another great pickup worth considering is the Virtual Hot PAF. It's discontinued, but they show up often enough on the used market to be obtainable. I agree with Ray's gradient list, and I would put the VHPAF right in between the AT-1 and Air Zone.
It's full and fat without being thundering (which I think may be the source of complaint of the Air Zone's similarity to the Tone Zone).
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Another great pickup worth considering is the Virtual Hot PAF. It's discontinued, but they show up often enough on the used market to be obtainable. I agree with Ray's gradient list, and I would put the VHPAF right in between the AT-1 and Air Zone.
It's full and fat without being thundering (which I think may be the source of complaint of the Air Zone's similarity to the Tone Zone).
I've thought about getting one of those because folks around here speak so highly of them but to be blunt, I'm afraid if I get one and like I will go crazy trying to find more of them for all my other guitars. :)
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I've had both the VHPAF and 36th in the same guitar, the 36th bridge was actually the replacement in the DiMarzio lineup for the VHPAF.
They are VERY similar. I found the VHPAF to be slightly fatter in the highs and lows, but not night and day at all. Not sure what Slugworth's rig is like but obviously he's hearing something different than what I am. All kinds of things affect perception of a pickup's tone. I'd put the VHPAF right next to and holding hands with the 36th on that list.
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Thanks again Ray. You put that idea to rest for me.
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The Virtual Hot PAF and Virtual PAF Bridge were "replaced" in Dimarzio's lineup by the 36th Anniversary PAF, and the VHPAF and 36th have the same output rating. But they are much different in other regards and are not really all that close to being the same pickup, hence the petitions to Dimarzio to bring back the Virtual PAFs.
The 36th is tighter and brighter, while the VHPAF is looser, warmer, and more full down low. No it's not night and day, but the VHPAF is closer to the Air Zone in this regard than the AT-1 is.
It looks like there's still plenty of NOS left on the VHPAF, too. There's an eBay seller with 5 black ones and 1 double cream.
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The Virtual Hot PAF and Virtual PAF Bridge were "replaced" in Dimarzio's lineup by the 36th Anniversary PAF, and the VHPAF and 36th have the same output rating. But they are much different in other regards and are not really all that close to being the same pickup, hence the petitions to Dimarzio to bring back the Virtual PAFs.
I've read the petition (for the VHPAF) here so I know how beloved they are. To be clear though, the 36th Bridge has an output of 285 mv whereas the VHPAF has 265 mv, at least according to the 2006 Dimarzio catalog I referenced.
The 36th is tighter and brighter, while the VHPAF is looser, warmer, and more full down low. No it's not night and day, but the VHPAF is closer to the Air Zone in this regard than the AT-1 is.
It looks like there's still plenty of NOS left on the VHPAF, too. There's an eBay seller with 5 black ones and 1 double cream.
Yeah, I've seen the ones on eBay and while that's encouraging if I really liked the pickup I would need like 11 of them, mostly in double cream
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11? Wow! Sounds like you are headed out on a world tour. 8)
I was thinking the published spec on the VHPAF was 285mv, but I guess my memory warped a digit. Even still, the output difference from the 36th bridge would probably be imperceptible.
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11? Wow! Sounds like you are headed out on a world tour. 8)
No, I've just got a lot of guitars and I like them to be consistent. I'm just afraid that I'll like the VHPAF so much that I won't want to play guitar without them though I'll still keep a few with Tone Zones or other pickups.
I was thinking the published spec on the VHPAF was 285mv, but I guess my memory warped a digit. Even still, the output difference from the 36th bridge would probably be imperceptible.
I agree the difference in the real world is minimal to the point of being irrelevant.
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Try an Air Zone (which is an air version of the Tone Zone) or an Norton, though I think between the two, AZ is probably closer to what you're looking for.
The Air Zone is too close to a Tone Zone for my tastes.
In that case, it's Norton. :)
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Slugworth:
Man not sure what you're hearing with the AT-1, you sure yours isn't defective? It is WAY fatter/darker/harmonically more complex, and comes across much hotter than a VHPAF, which is basically just an overwound PAF. I ended up putting A3 in my VHPAF to take some edge off, and that's with 250k pots. Hot, middy, or dark it is not. The AT-1 is far closer to the AZ in terms of output and dark/bright/mids, and I can't imagine it getting along with 250k pots unless the guitar or amp were REALLY bright.
Based on that and other places I've seen you say you used 250k with an AT-1, I'm thinking something is wrong with your AT-1.
I still have and use both pickups in multiple guitars, along with AZs, Breed Necks, Norton, and I really have no explanation at all for your take on the AT-1 other than to say yours might have a defect. I'd actually be rather surprised if it didn't, or if there weren't some wiring or grounding issue happening.
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My AT-1 is long gone. Maybe it was a bad one, who knows. It sounded airy and brighter than I thought it would, and I was surprised it wasn't closer to the Air Zone. Maybe I accidentally connected the coils in parallel. I like to think I have enough experience to avoid such a dumb mistake, and I know my ears can pick out immediately when a pickup is running in parallel. Shrug.
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It is quite hard for me to imagine how one could accidentally wire a pickup in parallel instead of series since it's a totally different wiring scheme. To me it would be more likely that the series linkage was not insulated properly or the insulation of one wire was damaged and touched a ground connection somewhere thereby making the pickup operate as single coil. Of course that would also have manifested in producing much more hum. If the hum level was the same my guess is it was defect in some unknown way.
I had only limited experience with the AT-1 (just about half an hour noodling on an Ibanez AT-100 in a store) but I did not hear anything bright and airy in it - loud, fat, rich in the mids and singing is as I would describe it.
Cheers Stephan
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I'm somehow finding it difficult to appreciate the continued insinuation that I don't know how to wire a guitar because I didn't like the AT-1.
:P >:(
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I'm somehow finding it difficult to appreciate the continued insinuation that I don't know how to wire a guitar because I didn't like the AT-1.
:P >:(
I think because your opinion of what you heard (with the AT-1) seems contrary to how others describe it they are looking for answer as to why. The fact is it's highly unlikely the pickup was defective but it's absolutely possible. As for your wiring job, I for one take your word for it when you say you know what you're doing when it comes to wiring in a pickup but there still is the possibility that you did make a mistake when installing. However unlikely that may be it is still possible. No one can know for sure but in the end it really doesn't matter what the root of your different opinion is.
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Matt put it well.
Slugworth, I really was not questioning your guitar wiring abilities - sorry if it came across that way.
Cheers Stephan
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This past week I've been playing a new guitar that came stock with a Tone Zone in the bridge. It's been a little while since I've spent some serious time with said pickup and in this guitar (thin maple top, swamp ash body, maple fingerboard, 1 volume no tone) it sounds really nice. The high is pretty smooth and the low end isn't overwhelming.
That said I'm still thinking I want to try something a little thinner/brighter so my quest continues though I'm leaning a little more towards the AT-1 side.
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If you just want something a little thinner/brighter than the Tone Zone, why not just install a coil split switch? Then you'd have the best of both worlds. The full on Tone Zone, which you now know you like, and the ability to switch to the split thinner/brighter version.
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I definitely don't want to split the pickup. A single coil is not what I'm going for. That's too far to the other side. I thought about trying the TZ in parallel but I haven't researched if others have tried this and what the result was.
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I found a great video on You Tube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJdlefAwaRM) that demonstrates the difference in sound between series and parallel for the Tone Zone, both clean and dirty.
From what I heard it might be just what I'm looking for. :) At the very least I can try wiring it up with a switch and see what I think of the parallel tone. If it works out I'll just put in a push/pull pot.
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So Ray, have you ever tried a Tone Zone in parallel and if so, how do you feel it compares to a PAF?
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I have but it was so long ago I don't remember.
But I'll tell you a trick I use:
Most higher output humbuckers in parallel don't sound so great or like a PAF. Part of that is because of the load 2 singles in parallel want to see vs. what a humbucker wants to see, part if it is the high end of 2 singles in parallel, even when next to each other on the same plate, kind of kills that "humbucker" thing. So what I do is, on the switch, you have the middle two posts of your 6 posts dpdt switch where one side is the negative of one coil and the other side is the positive of the other coil. When the pickup is in series, these are connected by a jumper across the upper to posts of the switch. Ok so wire a 470k (or 500 if you are using metal film and have one) resistor in parallel with a 1000pf cap across those middle two posts. This affects nothing when the pickup is in series since those posts are shorted, but when you pull the switch to put it in parallel, it creates a ~250k resistance to ground, more what singles want to see, and the 1000pf cap rolls off the highs such that you now have something that is lower in output and brighter/tighter, but still sounds like a PAF.
I've seen people complain about AT-1s not sounding so great in parallel, that trick cures it and makes them a PAF sounding pickup in parallel. Ditto others.
I'm somehow finding it difficult to appreciate the continued insinuation that I don't know how to wire a guitar because I didn't like the AT-1.
Not saying that at all. I'm sure you know how to wire it, that's why I'm saying I bet it was defective given how far off your descriptions of it are. Your take on other pickups doesn't seen far off, so I can't say it's the sound of your rig etc,, I'm really thinking the AT-1 had an issue. It happens.
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I found a great video on You Tube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJdlefAwaRM) that demonstrates the difference in sound between series and parallel for the Tone Zone, both clean and dirty.
From what I heard it might be just what I'm looking for. :) At the very least I can try wiring it up with a switch and see what I think of the parallel tone. If it works out I'll just put in a push/pull pot.
Yes!!
My two main guitars right now has Tone Zone and AT-1 in the bridge positions. Both are wired to push/push parallel switches. I love the sound of the TZ in parallel (cant say how much it sounds like a PAF though), it thins it out just enough and its a sound I use ALL the time when I dont need the full beef of the TZ.
FWIW The AT-1 on the other hand is just unuseable this way; way WAY too thin and screetchy for me (not saying others cant dig it though).
Guitars are Floyded basswood Ibanezez.
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To be clear I don't expect a parallel Tone Zone to just like a PAF. If it did every one would be talking about it. The reason I asked is that the YouTube clip I heard, which I take with a grain of salt, seemed to indicate that the TZ in parallel had some of that high end zing that a PAF has.
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Yeah try that resistor/cap trick I mentioned on the AT-1. Makes it very usable in parallel.
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I spent that past week playing a new guitar with a Tone Zone in the bridge and few nights ago I went back to an old guitar with a PAF in the bridge.
After that little comparison period I'm going to stick with the PAFs in most of my guitars including the new one. For my needs I find them far more versatile especially with an Axe FX Ultra. I can do a lot to my tone with pre and post distortion EQ.
Thanks for all the input. It helped me make a decision.