DiMarzio Forum
DimarzioForum.Com => The Pickup Place => Topic started by: ZeroCool on July 05, 2011, 07:52:16 PM
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Is it possible that the AT-1 is an aired EVH EBMM pickup?
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No, not really...
I mean, theoretically, it is possible. Possible in the most literal definition of the word, for example, it's possible that Elvis is still alive and hiding in a cave in Montana.
While this situation is in fact, possible, the likelihood of it having any sort of correlation with reality is highly unlikely.
It is extremely unfortunate that neither Dimarzio nor EBMM will release the specs on that pickup, because it really was a fantastic sounding set. However until that day comes (which, knowing Larry, it will not) the simple fact of the matter is that you can't buy the illustrious EVH pickup (new that is). There are pickups that will get you close (the half aired Tone Zone seems to be the closest pickup to this) but if you want the real deal you'll have to pay top dollar on ebay...
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I was under the impression that the AT-1 is sort of DiMarzio's "JB with 250K pots" with VV airing.
It might get one in the ballpark, but is essentially designed for Andy Timmons.
There is no way that DiMarzio would have just slapped a AT-1 sticker on the back of a B1 and pronounced it as specially designed for Mr. Timmons.
The coincidence is that they are both insanely good hot rodded PAF style pickups.
The AT-1 is built around Andy's vintage JB with some additional "DiMarzio tweaks" (Andy's JB was supposedly already modded and stopped working when he got the AT-1 designed). It's not a JB clone, but has the same 44AWG wire and A5 magnet... I wouldn't call a Norton or Tone Zone a JB clone and they use the same wire and magnet also.
A JB can sound harsh in a 25 fret guitar, so the AT-1 is absolutely smoother and the air technology gives it a bit more definition and clarity that the JB depends on it's high mid presence to deliver.
Is the JB sort of a starting point for all 44 AWG hot rodded PAF style designs? Absolutely... it's the great grandfather of all hot Alnico bridge pups. The 16-18K sweet spot is just that, a sweet spot for getting the best tone out of 44 AWG winds. 44AWG sort of tonally maxes out after a certain number of turns. It's the type of 44 AWG wire used, how it's wound and the materials used in the design which dictates the actual difference in sound between the various 44 AWG hot rodded models out there.
It's sort of insulting to infer that DiMarzio plays shell games with their pickup designs though isn't it? It's one thing to speculate on how to best achieve the EBMM Axis pickups with DiMarzio's existing product line, but assuming that DiMarzio would repackage an OEM pickup design and sell it as an artist's signature pickup is maybe going a bit too far.
It's a nice theory but in all likelihood, is erroneous.
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What exactly do you mean by calling all these pickups "hot rodded PAFs"?
The JB is about as far away from a PAF as you can get, thin wire, even windings, high DCr etc. The AT-1 is even more different due to the Dimarzio technologies (airing, VV).
One final thing, what do you mean by saying a JB can sound harsh in a 25 fret guitar (I'm assuming that you meant 24). Not only does Andy not play a 24 fret guitar, but the extra frets would only affect the neck pickup, where the JB is rarely if ever used.
Not trying to call you out or say you are wrong, just trying to clarify...
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What exactly do you mean by calling all these pickups "hot rodded PAFs"?
It's just a slang term that I personally use.
The JB is about as far away from a PAF as you can get, thin wire, even windings, high DCr etc. The AT-1 is even more different due to the Dimarzio technologies (airing, VV).
I have a bad habit of seeing the PAF roots of many modern humbuckers.... I see active pups, PAF style humbuckers, Filtertrons, FWRH, single coils and stacked single buckers as definitive categories. Bill Lawrence low inductance designs are quite unique and are a category onto themselves and I don't have much experience with Bartolinis or DeArmonds (outside of one that was on my 12 string as a young teenager).
Categorizing things has always been one of my strengths and weaknesses. lol.
One final thing, what do you mean by saying a JB can sound harsh in a 25 fret guitar (I'm assuming that you meant 24). Not only does Andy not play a 24 fret guitar, but the extra frets would only affect the neck pickup, where the JB is rarely if ever used.
I've always found that shorter scale lengths have a sort of warmer sound and the longer scale lengths can have more edge and cut, that's sort of where I was going... but I clearly meant 25" not 25 frets. lolz.
I was up all night editing video and typed the post right before I caught a long overdue cat nap. I'll change the frets to inches.
I've found that the JB's edge and cut is a bit subdued in shorter scale lengths and the harsh upper mids on the unwound strings aren't really ever an issue like they are on 25" scale lengths. I dunno... it's just my experience.
I'm a JB nut and if the pickup was a woman, I would have married her already! I've got JB2s, Bugseybuckers, JBJs, custom shop double creams and just picked up a 35th Anniversary commemorative JB and a liberator... if I ever get ahead of work, i'd like to do some back to back tone tests.
It was love/hate and I HATED the JB for many years and avoided them like the plague. I became a believer after picking up a really cheap guitar that happened to have a JB in it despite my misconceptions and misguided notions.
It took me a couple of years of working on my picking technique... basically refining it and paying extra attention to the way that I hold angle my pick. It wasn't until I moved to an angled pick attack for most of my picking on the unwound strings that I started to understand the mojo of the JB.
Not trying to call you out or say you are wrong, just trying to clarify...
I needed that Oilpit! Thanks! ;D
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I totally get that, and it actually is a pretty good slang term to use, it's a good way of differentiating standard slug/screw buckers with the vast majority of other kinds of pickup!
And good to know that you are a fellow JB nut. They basically are the best pickups ever made IMO, they just sound perfect!
Again, I hope I didn't come off as rude or condescending because that's definitely not what I want!
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I totally get that, and it actually is a pretty good slang term to use, it's a good way of differentiating standard slug/screw buckers with the vast majority of other kinds of pickup!
And good to know that you are a fellow JB nut. They basically are the best pickups ever made IMO, they just sound perfect!
Again, I hope I didn't come off as rude or condescending because that's definitely not what I want!
I read your posts and learn from you Oilpit, you are a high priest of tone in my book. You are as polite as you are knowledgeable and could never come off as rude or condescending IMHO.
iVive El Oilpit!
(https://www.dimarzioforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.seymourduncan.com%2Fforum%2Fimage.php%3Fu%3D16952%26amp%3Bdateline%3D1285551212&hash=be0687f21bbc089546b8b118b607cff7ce7a3fcb)
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Stop it you're gonna make me blush ;D
I truly appreciate your kind words, karma for being a great source of knowledge and a pleasure to deal with (and for fully appreciating the JB...it's totally underrated around here)
And well done with the Beck picture, you're all over the place!
I should probably go about making that my avatar over here as well...
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Both use awg 44 poly wire wound to approx. 8.5K per coil, have a alnico 5 magnet and are machine wound.
The AT-1 has the airbucker patent /design and VV Patent/design while the axis does not use either. so dimarzio is not pulling any tricks or stunts since both in stock form ARE NOT the same pu. the rest is up you , from my own experience when i made the AT-1 no longer have air gaps(i used parts from a old tone zone, and removed the two screws under the bobbin to get rid of the VV design, they sound the same! and yes I own 3 axis sets i have bought from ebay and elsewhere to compare. :madness: Many dont realize it but the axis is very close to a JB. so the AT-1 fits the bill.
FWIW the air norton is more than close enough to the neck axis,but if you want it even closer de-air the slug coil or just use the liquifire with is a warmer /hotter air norton with hex poles
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Steve Blucher of Dimarzio explained to me that when Dimarzio got the contract to make the pickup for the Ernie Ball EVH guitar,the pickup that they took out of the Franky at that time was a Duncan JB,thats the pickup that they used to make the Ernie Ball EVH pickup.
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Oh dear jesus not again...
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Oilpit, you need some serious help man you are already starting with your insults and BS,you should be banned from ever sight you belong to,you cause many problems for sight members.
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I didn't see any insult(s) in Oilpit's comment...or any BS! ???
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Luijo then what did olipit mean.
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That a can of worms is about to be opened again...isn't that what you mean Oilpit?
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I gave information that was explained to me by Steve Blucher of Dimarzio about the Ernie Ball EVH pickup and how it started which is a fact,what can of worms are you talking about.
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How come that every info you read or hear is correct and everybody else's is just BS?
Have you ever thought that maybe you are being BS-ed as well as you think everybody else is?
What makes you think that those guys are all giving you the right info and not misguiding you as you claim they misguide all the other people?
If you are in any special or privileged position please let us know so we can all stop doubting your words as you think we all are!
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Explain to me what info is not correct,ive been at this(Van halen thing since the 70s)for a longtime,im not going to post things that are not true,(why do that) and when I read things that are not true or are total BS then Im going to say something so that the correct info is then presented.BS information is all over the net and some people will believe things that are not true.Ive been around many people who were associated with the Van halen camp in the 70s to the 90s(Jose Arrendondo,Rudy Leiran,Zeke Clark,Matt Bruck,Scotty Ross,and so on).So if you and some others want to dought me then let me here the facts that you have and explain to me where you got your information.
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Oilpit, you need some serious help man you are already starting with your insults and BS,you should be banned from ever sight you belong to,you cause many problems for sight members.
Dude, you need to get a grip.
I don't want to sound presumptuous or cocky, but I like to think that I am a respected member of this forum. I answer questions as often as I can, I get into some killer discussions about pickups and tone with some members that know a whole hell of a lot more than I do, I ask questions and I learn. In short, I contribute. And if I see someone making false claims and spreading misinformation whilst simultaneously putting down anyone that disagrees with them, hell yeah I'm going to say something, and no, I'm not going to be polite about it. You come here and start running your mouth and insulting long time members and then say I should be banned when I call you out on it? I don't think so...
I very seriously doubt that Steve Blucher told you that a Dimarzio pickup was based on the JB...that just isn't something any business savvy or tone savvy pickup winder would do. On top of that, Ed never had a JB in Frankie!
You need a serious reality check dude...
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Explain to me what info is not correct,ive been at this(Van halen thing since the 70s)for a longtime,im not going to post things that are not true,(why do that) and when I read things that are not true or are total BS then Im going to say something so that the correct info is then presented.BS information is all over the net and some people will believe things that are not true.Ive been around many people who were associated with the Van halen camp in the 70s to the 90s(Jose Arrendondo,Rudy Leiran,Zeke Clark,Matt Bruck,Scotty Ross,and so on).So if you and some others want to dought me then let me here the facts that you have and explain to me where you got your information.
If you know all this, why did you start that "What Dimarzio for VH-1 tone?" thread in the first place? I think you're trolling.
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He is...
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BTW, to get back on topic, I have the AT-1 in 2 Charvels. It works really well for 80's style hardrock tones, as well as some metal. It versatile, warm, fat, and sounds great for lead playing. If I had to compare it to any of their other pickups, I would say it's kind of a Breed/Air Zone mix. A little lower output, though.
I'm not a fan of the dual resonance, so this is like a perfected Tone Zone to me.
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Doesn't the AT-1 use DR technology? I could have sworn it did, but I could be wrong...
Timmons actually used a Breed briefly in between the time he stopped using a JB and the AT-1 was created so that's where the similarities come from. The AT-1 is a killer pickup, it sounds a little polite for rhythm playing IMO...although it is probably the most dynamic Dimarzio humbucker in the line up
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Looking at the pat #s it looks like it has the airbucker and virtual vintage #s, but not the dual resonance one. :-\ I could be wrong though, but I like this pickup where the DR pickups usually bother me in some way.
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Interesting...I guess I always just assumed that it used dual resonance technology...
But since it's partially-sorta-kinda based on the JB I guess it makes sense that it would have even coils...
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Oilpit how do you know what Steve Blucher tould me,your assuming as usual,your doubtting facts that are true,like I have said im not going to post things that are not true what would be the advantage of posting misinformation to lead someone down the wrong road?.So what your trying to say is that Steve Blucher(Dimarzio) is a liar and so is Dudley Gumble at Ernie Ball.As for Ed using a duncan JB he did at that time,your saying no because you have nothing else to say and you just doubt facts,especially facts from people who had worked with Ed.As for me posting this thread about what dimarzio pickup for the van halen 1 sound,I like to hear opinions on what guys are using today in the dimarzio line that achieve that sound,thats all.What information have you brought to this sight,none,just insults, small talk and doubts all misinformation and assumptions,I can backup my facts you cant. Your the troll you learn your information from people like me,you have no where else to go to get your information.
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Steve Blucher of Dimarzio explained to me that when Dimarzio got the contract to make the pickup for the Ernie Ball EVH guitar,the pickup that they took out of the Franky at that time was a Duncan JB,thats the pickup that they used to make the Ernie Ball EVH pickup.
Excuse me for assuming anything that you type is true, I should have learned my lesson by now.
As far as what bullshit you have spread, just check the EVH thread, just about every single post you made involves some kind of lies and or false facts...
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As for me posting this thread about what dimarzio pickup for the van halen 1 sound,I like to hear opinions on what guys are using today in the dimarzio line that achieve that sound,thats all.What information have you brought to this sight,none,just insults, small talk and doughts all misinformation and assumptions,I can backup my facts you cant. Your the troll you learn your information from people like me,you have no where else to go to get your information.
TL;DR
I never post anything besides my own first hand experience and opinions with gear, so I don't know what you're talking about.
It's spelled doubt, BTW.
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Thats the pickup that they took out of the frankie at that time was a Duncan JB, true fact,your wrong again oilpit,call Steve Blucher,year was 89-90.The misinformation and BS is from your lack of knowledge on this subject,try again. Oilpit explain the lies to me.
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It's the internet gentlemen, try to remain civilized.
The AT-1 is a pretty darn good pickup. I mean, Andy Timmons lent his name to it, what more could you want? For the longest time, it was a custom order only pickup, and those who were able to get their hands on it would always tout its fantastic tone. Needless to say, they were right.
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City,im not going to post something thats misleading.If im not sure of a specific subject then im not going to say nothing plain and simple.
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Oilpit still waiting on the lies and false facts.
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City,im not going to post something thats misleading.If im not sure of a specific subject then im not going to say nothing plain and simple.
But you just did. Steve B. did not tell you the Music Man pickup was based on a JB, there's no way he said one of the most sought after Dimarzio pickups ever made was based on a pickup made by his biggest business competitor. On top of that, find me ANYTHING that says that Eddie ever had a JB in Frankie...if Ed ever used a JB it was for a very brief period of time, and he certainly didn't model his signature pickup after it.
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Thats what Steve Blucher explained to me,when Dimarzio got the contract to make the Ernie Ball EVH guitar pickups the pickup that was taken out of Eds original frankie at that time(89-90) which had the maple neck with the kramer logo on it was a Duncan JB.They used that pickup as a foundation to make the Ernie Ball EVH pickups.The Duncan JB is a 16k pickup,in designing the ernie ball EVH pickup they made the pickup alittle hotter(17k) due to the basswood body and maple top plus the guitar was very lite.Steve Blucher was invited to 5150 studio,for some that dont know,5150 studio is Eds studio which is located on his home property,to work and design that pickup.Steve also explained that they went though many designs but they didnt change the res.of 17k,Ed is a hard person to please when it comes to his equipment.So why would I lie about this,for what reason.Dudley Gumbel at Ernie Ball can also explain the same thing he was also part of designing that guitar with Ed.Do you think that Ed is going to explain everytime he gives a interview to a guitar magazine about his equipment and what he honestly uses,I dont think so.When van halen was playing clubs in the 70s Ed would turn his back to the crowd(sometimes) when he played eruption because he didnt want people(guitarist) in the crowd to see how he played eruption Ed didnt like people copying his sound,thats why in early interviews(Guitar player magazine) he knew guitar players would read, he would say things about how he achieved his sound that werent true,one example "turning up the variac to 140 volts and watch the tubes melt"which was complete BS Ed lowered the volts to 90 volts.Anyway I need to go back to setup more guitars.
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When VH went to EBMM to have his sig guitar built he wanted to have seymour do the pu's but EBMM had dealings/agreement with dimarzio. so they went with dimarzio for the mass producer of the pu's.
The duncans that were shelved are called "black backs" .these are the prototypes seymour made for the EBMM EVH sig guitar. and you can still buy these for $130 each from duncans custom shop or ed roman
Anyway according to blucher many bridge p'u prototypes were made for EVH and he narrowed it down to 2 models ,one went on to become the tone zone and the other wound up known as the ebmm EVH bridge pu.(also called the axis bridge pu). and are in that guitar to this day.
this pickups starting point was the duncan JB in VH's kramer 5150 guitar.
This JB was not your typical off the shelf duncan JB model you can buy, it is the old school JB that uses a rough cast UOA5 magnet in place of the polished A5.(if you know anything about magnets and the effect on tone you will know that the two sound very different) So they used this pu as the template for the bridge pu in the EVH or axis.
this is why the spec's of the dmarzio EVH or axis bridge pu is so similar to a JB(16.5K alnico 5 wound with awg 44 and matched coils) essentially it is dimarzio version of a JB as is newly released the AT-1.
Get a JB and slap a roughcast UOA5 magnet it it and hear the JB in a new light! very VH sounding! :madness:
here is blucher talking about tone zone and EVH
IHG: With regard to when you said pickups don't exist in a vacuum, I imagine you seek feedback from various players from different genres when designing a new pickup? For example, Paul Gilbert was featured in an ad for the Tone Zone - did he have any feedback into its development?
Blucher: We sometimes seek opinions from players in different genres, but not when a pickup is being designed for a specific player or style of music. Paul Gilbert didn't provide any input towards the development of the Tone Zone. The only player who did was Eddie Van Halen, in the course of doing the pickups for the MusicMan EVH guitar. My understanding is that the final choice for the bridge pickup was between the TZ and the pickup he actually chose, and it almost literally came down to a coin toss.
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It's the internet gentlemen, try to remain civilized.
The AT-1 is a pretty darn good pickup. I mean, Andy Timmons lent his name to it, what more could you want? For the longest time, it was a custom order only pickup, and those who were able to get their hands on it would always tout its fantastic tone. Needless to say, they were right.
COBL, i agree and what is great is that if you mod it by removing the Virtual Vntage and air design it has the same tone as the Axis bridge pu.
I did this to my AT-1 before i sold one of my dimarzio axis pu's to be sure :madness:
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+1, knowledgeable person(Ed Hunter) when it comes to the Van halen sound.
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Old JBs had UOA5s?!?!
What the hell?
The bullshit is getting more absurd by the minute!!!
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OH MY GOD.......Oilpit you are just looking to argue,what knowledge do you have in regards to this topic.Answer, not a thing why bother with you your a joke........
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The Duncan JB has been exactly the same from day one. Unoriented, roughcast magnets have never been used in any Duncan pickup in their history. Only recently have forum members started to swap them into pickups.
Ed never played a JB, they never used UOA5s, you and Ed Hunter just live in a little EVH fantasy world where whatever you want to be true automatically becomes gospel truth, and anyone that disagrees is "a joke"
Call up Duncan, ask them if you don't believe me...
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"Call Duncan and ask them" Eds going to tell Duncan everytime he changes or tries different pickups. OH MY GOD............... :madness:
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The Duncan JB has been exactly the same from day one. Unoriented, roughcast magnets have never been used in any Duncan pickup in their history.
This is mostly true. Rough cast and unoriented are two different things. All Alnico humbucker magnets are sand cast, the difference is that ground magnets are sand cast oversized, then ground down to a precise dimension, with a smooth, flat, polished surface. When someone says "rough cast" (which is sort of a made up term) they mean that the sand casting is attempting to make the magnet the exact size, but of course leaves a rough surface. Even what we'd call a sand cast magnet still has the important dimension (the one along the pole pieces) ground to precision. You wouldn't really want that surface to be granular.
Old JB's did not have unoriented magnets, but they did have what forumites would call "sand cast" or "rough cast" magnets, where the sides facing the strings and the guitar body are rough. Even those surfaces can be passed through a grinder to knock off high spots. Occasionally you'll see magnets like that with a few shiny spots across the top surface where the grinder hit. These magnets are used in the Antiquity JB/Jazz. The result is less predictable. When making a production pickup like the JB, I would say it's "better" to use the ground magnets, for the ultimate in precision and repeatability. But for the Antiquity and 35th Anniversary commemorative, we went with the original.
These magnet differences are a very small. By answer to this post I am not agreeing with anything said by anyone about JB's, EVH, AT-1, etc. Just clarifying the magnet talk.
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These magnet differences are a very small. By answer to this post I am not agreeing with anything said by anyone about JB's, EVH, AT-1, etc. Just clarifying the magnet talk.
Chicken...
j/k ;D
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Frank wouldnt know that anyway.
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Frank wouldnt know that anyway.
You wouldn't know what I know or don't know. ;)
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The Duncan JB has been exactly the same from day one. Unoriented, roughcast magnets have never been used in any Duncan pickup in their history. Only recently have forum members started to swap them into pickups.
Ed never played a JB, they never used UOA5s, you and Ed Hunter just live in a little EVH fantasy world where whatever you want to be true automatically becomes gospel truth, and anyone that disagrees is "a joke"
Call up Duncan, ask them if you don't believe me...
hey doubting thomas WHAT MAGNET does this JB have?
http://www.themusiczoo.com/product/8268/Seymour-Duncan-35th-Anniversary-JB-Bridge-Humbucker-Pickup-Black/
Next tme watch who you are accusing of slinging BS! >:( >:( >:(
YOU KNOW NOTHING!
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+1 yes sir........
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Frank I was talking about that you wouldnt know about the JB and EVH thing because you didnt work for Dimarzio in 89-90.
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You know what really pisses me off is that OILPIT has no real world experience with gear. He probably never even heard a UOA5 JB yet he disses it calling it BS and ed never used one? how the hell do you know that ed never used one?
I will believe the guy's that worked at kramer when ed was playing their guitars over what you say.
When you have been playing for 25 years and have did 100's of gigs then maybe you will have some knowledge and credit >:(
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Frank I was talking about that you wouldnt know about the JB and EVH thing because you didnt work for Dimarzio in 89-90.
as per paul unkert(built the kramer 5150's after the proto was made by ed at the factory) and several kramer employee's all said the kramer 5150's were sent with JB's and 59's to EVH.
there is nothing to despute about this, these guys were there ;)
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Joy to the world................Ed Hunter +1
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I completely forgot who i was arguing with! OMFG! ::)
http://youtu.be/Oi3mtRIzJcY
my favorite part is when he says "makes a les paul sound more like a les paul' ::)
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Frank I was talking about that you wouldnt know about the JB and EVH thing because you didnt work for Dimarzio in 89-90.
Ha I was just kidding anyway. But you might be surprised at what I do know.
But on a serious note, please ALL you guys be cool. So much of the stuff you guys are debating here is false, or only half-true anyway so the vitriol with which you defend these partial truths as fact is just a real drain on the whole experience. You have a host, and you are guests.
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"Half truths" I dont think so,sorry frank.
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Ha I was just kidding anyway. But you might be surprised at what I do know.
But on a serious note, please ALL you guys be cool. So much of the stuff you guys are debating here is false, or only half-true anyway so the vitriol with which you defend these partial truths as fact is just a real drain on the whole experience. You have a host, and you are guests.
We appreciate you posting Frank! It's not like the good old days on Jemsite, I guess.
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::) ::)
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I can confirm that the AT-1 is very close to the AXIS, EVH pickups. Seems it has a little less highs, but that might be the guitar its in. PRS se with Floyd Rose.