DiMarzio Forum
DimarzioForum.Com => The Pickup Place => Topic started by: Slartibartfarst on February 12, 2023, 09:49:03 AM
-
I have an LTD M-1000E, which is an alder body with a set-thru maple neck, ebony fingerboard, 25.5" scale and Floyd bridge. I currently have a Super Distortion in the bridge and I love it, but less happy with the BKP Emerald in the neck, so I'm looking for a DiMarzio alternative.
I usually prefer something PAF in the neck and often gravitate to alnico 2 or 4, but I'm more open to alternatives this time as I also have an Epiphone Explorer with a Gibson 498T/490R set in it that can give me that PAF feel.
It needs to be able to take a healthy amount of gain without turning muddy. I love the Dave Murray neck tone. I don't like a volume drop when moving between pickups.
Looking at the website, the two that leap out are the Super 2 and the PAF Pro. The former is clearly designed to go with a Super Distortion, so that would appear to make it a sensible option, but the PAF Pro sounds like it's more in my comfort zone and the description certainly sounds like what I'm looking for as long as it can live with the Super Distortion.
-
Classic Dave Murray neck tone is a PAF, which I believe is an Air Classic without the air. EDIT: I tried searching for verification but couldn’t find anything about this.
The key to a saturated neck tone that is not muddy is an overdrive pedal. In Dave’s case it was a Tube Screamer, if I’m not mistaken.
EDIT:
I just dug this up:
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/forum/the-pickup-lounge/316782-de-aired-my-air-classic
He mentions a DiMarzio spacer, I think he might be talking about a keeper bar. This is likely how I got the impression that this would yield the original DP103. After re-reading it clearly doesn’t say that.
-
The more I think about it, the more the Super 2 seems like it will just be too modern for my tastes as I think I'm after a really articulate PAF that's reasonably hot to keep up with the Super Distortion. The Air Classic sounds like an interesting concept but like the PAF Joe, I fear it will struggle to keep up with the bridge. So far the PAF Pro seems the most likely option but I've made no firm decision.
-
The Super2 meshes REALLY well with the Super Distortion bridge. That is its strength and its weakness. If you don't like a lot of tonal difference between the bridge and neck pickup, it is the perfect set for you. If you do like a lot of difference between the two (like the 498t/490r set) then you may be bored with the Super D / Super 2 set. The PAF pro is the other pickup I see paired with the Super D a lot, and they do work well together. The PAF Pro's bottom end can be kinda squishy on the lower notes while the Super 2 keeps it tighter. The PAF Pro is a clearer pickup for cleans. The PAF Joe ion the other hand may be too polite to mesh well with the Super D. Something like the Liquifire might work with the Super D. I think you are right about the Air Classic being underpowered compared to the Super D.
-
I was definitely not trying to recommend a stock Air Classic Neck, and I can’t corroborate my belief about recreating the original DP103 by un-airing an Air Classic. I’m sorry for not checking into this before posting.
I really don’t have too much to offer in the way of recommendations of a DiMarzio pickup that sounds like a PAF. Aside from the 36th, PAF 59 and PAF Master I don’t really think DiMarzio pickups sound like P.A.F. pickups. As much as I like the 36th, I consider it somewhat of a stretch. Virtual Vintage tech and non-nickel silver backplates are not part of the formula. An inconsistent number of turns on each bobbin resulting in an unbalance is part of the equation provided it is of the same gauge wire.
I like my PAF Pro in the neck position but I don’t think it sounds like a Duncan Seth Lover or a Gibson Burstbucker.
That out of the way I think DiMarzio makes excellent neck pickups. Unfortunately most of the ones I like are too powerful for the bridge pickups that I like.
Anyway, besides the PAF Pro I would check out the DiMarzio’s hottest vintage output pickups, which include bridge pickups such as the 36th and PAF Master. The latter, according to the specs, does not have an overwhelming amount of bass which is characteristic of a pickup with an A4 magnet.
I would also consider the Duncan Whole Lotta Humbucker or Saturday Night Special. The Screamin’ Demon also makes for an excellent neck pickup that I believe would pair nicely with a Super D.
https://youtu.be/xfbrlale9j8
-
It's interesting you say that because when I contacted DiMarzio, they suggested a PAF Master bridge model with F-spacing. I'm unsure why they specified F-spacing when it clearly doesn't need to be F-spaced in the neck position.
-
I'm unsure why they specified F-spacing when it clearly doesn't need to be F-spaced in the neck position.
I'm oversimplifying this, but: Wider bobbin pole spacing = greater length of wire per wind rotation to cover circumerence = greater total DC resistance and capacitance. All things being equal, a pickup with a 53mm bobbin should have slightly higher output and a slightly lower resonant peak than the same pickup wound on a 50mm bobbin.
Some winders are superstitious about bobbin size/pole spacing: Michael Frank Braun, for example, believes some vague quality of "PAF magic" is lost when the humbucker is wound on bobbins with a greater than 50mm pole spacing. Though I don't necessarily agree with this, I don't have to buy his pickups, either.
-
Thank you, that makes sense. Clearly they're just wanting to increase the power of the pickup as much as possible so that it can live with the Super Distortion. DiMarzio said the output would match a Super 2. This sounds ideal, but they also suggested I might be worrying about a non-issue. For a start, they warned that the output might be more than I want in terms of articulation with gain. They also pointed out that as long as I'm playing with gain, having a lower powered neck pickup won't matter because the clipping tends to even out the output.
If all this is true, it seems to me that I might as well just go for the pickup that best offers the tone I'm after and not worry about power (within reason). That does, of course, confuse matters because it throws a whole range of possibilities into the mix. The PAF Master neck may still be too weak, but the normal bridge may work OK, and both of the PAF 36th Anniversary pickups might be suitable. Could the PAF Joe also be a possibility? Presumably there is also the PAF Pro, though DiMarzio described that pickup as being 'edgy', which didn't sound like the Dave Murray tone.
-
I was suggesting the PAF Master Bridge. If you’re worried about a lack of articulation you might consider the Screamin’ Demon. It has A5 PAF qualities but with more growl and bite which will allow it to saturate more easily.
Neither the PAF Pro nor the PAF Joe sound like a classic PAF, at least not to my ears.
-
Keep in mind that DiMarzio's F-spacing is only 51mm and therefore not equal to the 53mm used by Seymour Duncan on the Trembuckers or by Bare Knuckle. An F-Spaced DiMarzio may work in the neck position depending on the nut width.
Cheers Stephan
-
It seems like if I want to get that early Dave Murray tone, I need a PAF and if I need a PAF to live with the Super Distortion, it almost has to be a bridge model. Looking at all the possibilities, I would guess the PAF Master and 36th Anniversary are the best for what I'm after. I did find a video online of a bridge PAF Master used in the neck position and it was certainly an articulate option with quite a sweet tone. It actually seemed surprisingly tight for a neck position and one of the comments I saw suggested it wouldn't be a particularly forgiving option. Given my limited ability, that might be a concern. I couldn't find anything about a bridge 36th Anniversary used in the neck position, so I don't really know what to expect from that or how it compares to the PAF Master.
-
An A4 has an acoustic quality to it. I don’t like them personally. It is often recommended on the Seymour Duncan forum to use in order to reduce bass in Les Pauls. I am unaware of anyone using them to play hard rock/heavy metal. They are more common in ‘70s blues rock.
My research indicates that the old DP103 is ~8k with an A5, magnet*. This is typical for a vintage output pickup. I wonder whether that was a coincidence for DiMarzio to reuse the model number.
As I said earlier, an overdrive like a Tube Screamer is often used to tighten and saturate. I’m fairly confident that Dave Murray used one with a Marshall, which I’m betting was a 2203.
(*)
https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/70s-dimarzio-paf.276162/
https://reverb.com/item/734571-vintage-dimarzio-paf-super-distortion-set-mid-70s-square-tab-humbucker-pickup-pre-dp103-dp100
https://offerup.co/9I1nTVkErxb
-
I reached out to DiMarzio, but their response didn't really clarify things unfortunately:
'The output level of the Master is similar, but the PAF 36th has significantly thicker lows and mids. I don’t think that would present a problem in your guitar, but it’s impossible to be certain in advance which model is the better choice.'
-
https://youtu.be/SQST2Sh7TrQ
Not the best demo, but you can hear what the Super D and the 36th Neck sound like together playing Maiden. This isn’t my video, I just happened to stumble over it.
-
Now that was a very thought provoking video! For a start, the 36th Anniversary didn't sound particularly dark at all. I imagine my guitar is a little darker than the one in the video, simply because mine is a set-thru and his is bolt-on, but I wouldn't expect them to be worlds apart. The other thing that stood out to me was that the neck pickup seemed to keep up with the Super Distortion perfectly well and there was no mention that he was using a bridge model. I can only assume that he was using the neck model and that's the one that some people have indicated wouldn't be powerful enough. The tone was certainly smooth and sweet enough for that classic Dave Murray sound, so maybe the normal neck 36th Anniversary pickup would be just fine.
-
Keep in mind that DiMarzio's F-spacing is only 51mm
Fascinating, if true. It seems to be 53mm according to retailer and OEM specs. I'm not saying a bobbin you measured isn't 51mm, or that the 53mm spec'd bobbins don't actually measure 51mm - I'm just stating that this is news to me. If this happens to be true across the board, a lot of folks should update their info.
Edit: I see the official Dimarzio spacing template specifies 51.05mm measured from the center of the outside polepieces. I wonder whether the 53mm figure comes from people measuring end-to-end, or if everyone just parrots 53mm as being F-spacing across all brands, despite it not being one-size-fits-all?
-
Vintage output pickups are quite bright, especially the weaker neck pickups.
Remember, the neck position is much louder and more bassy than the bridge position. If you want a thick tone from the bridge position you will need to do something to manage the amount of low end coming from the neck position in order to keep it from sounding wooly or flubby. This is normally done by way of your choice of pickup, equalization or both and becomes more necessary as you increase the amount of gain.
-
Have you thought about the Humbucker From Hell? That is a great neck pickup especially paired with the SD. I think the Air Norton would be good as well as a 36th Anniversary bridge. I just think the HFH is a good fit in your scenario. It will retain some highs so it doesn't sound muddy at all but still gives decent PAFish tones.