DiMarzio Forum
DimarzioForum.Com => The Pickup Place => Topic started by: egkor on March 14, 2014, 05:38:12 AM
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Hi, I am a fan of Andy Timmons' tone. So I am replacing the stock HSS pickups in a approx. 2011 Fender Standard (MIM) Strat with a AT-1 (Bridge pos.), Cruiser Bridge (Middle pos.), Cruiser Bridge (Neck pos.), to copy the Andy Timmons configuration.
I understand a lot of what's going on with running all the pickups "serial" and in phase with each other.
I have not replaced all the pickups (yet), but I have put a Cruiser Bridge in the neck position as a start. So far all the other electronics is Fender factory standard (5 way switch, vol+tone pots).
Questions:
1) What I found just testing with the Cruiser Bridge in the neck (along with the Fender single coil in the middle), a listening test to my ears showed the standard DiMarzio humbucker wiring (white+black connected, red=hot, green+bare to ground) sounds the best alone (switch pos. 5) and when combined with the single-coil middle p/u (switch pos 4). Does this sound correct?
2) I am next going to install a Cruiser Neck in the middle pos, and the AT-1 in the bridge. For the AT-1 if I use the same switch wiring as is already there, I believe switch pos 1 is going to use the AT-1 both coils in series, switch pos 2 is going to use one of the AT-1 coils (split) in combination with the middle (Cruiser Neck) pickup. Will this be acceptable as I believe the Andy Timmons configuration for switch pos 2 has the AT-1 coils in series, and in combination with the Cruiser Bridge (middle pos.) p/u. Can anyone comment on this? I don't fully understand (yet) the switching and how to make it like the Timmons configuration (rather than the Fender configuration).
3) Pots, I'm not sure yet if the guitar has 250k or 500k pots. If it has 250k pots, would I get a change in tone for the better if I switch to 500k pots?
4) With only the neck p/u replaced (Fender Single replaced with Cruiser Bridge), the Fender Single coil in the middle by comparison is slightly louder and with lots more treble. Does this sound normal? I believe it will balance out once I put the other Cruiser (middle pos.) and AT-1 (bridge) in.
Is there anyone out there that has done what I'm doing: Retrofitted a HSS Fender Standard MIM Strat w/ stock pickups, with AT-1/Cruiser/Cruiser? Any words of wisdom, things to do, things to not do? Replace pots as well?
Thanks,
-Gary K
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1) What I found just testing with the Cruiser Bridge in the neck (along with the Fender single coil in the middle), a listening test to my ears showed the standard DiMarzio humbucker wiring (white+black connected, red=hot, green+bare to ground) sounds the best alone (switch pos. 5) and when combined with the single-coil middle p/u (switch pos 4). Does this sound correct?
Yes, I believe series connection is the default standard for these pickups (as for most).
2) I am next going to install a Cruiser Neck in the middle pos, and the AT-1 in the bridge. For the AT-1 if I use the same switch wiring as is already there, I believe switch pos 1 is going to use the AT-1 both coils in series, switch pos 2 is going to use one of the AT-1 coils (split) in combination with the middle (Cruiser Neck) pickup. Will this be acceptable as I believe the Andy Timmons configuration for switch pos 2 has the AT-1 coils in series, and in combination with the Cruiser Bridge (middle pos.) p/u. Can anyone comment on this? I don't fully understand (yet) the switching and how to make it like the Timmons configuration (rather than the Fender configuration).
That is correct. Pos. 1 is humbucker in series, pos. 2 is humbucker split + middle pickup. I have no idea how AT's guitars are set up but if you want the humbucker in series also in pos. 2, you can just disconnect the black/white wires from the pickup from the switch but leave them soldered together and put some isolation tape around them. Try both and see what you prefer.
3. On the pots, check with a multimeter what value you have (you need to disconnect the switch before doing that, otherwise you will get the parallel value of pickup DC resistance and pot DC resistance). In general humbuckers are used with 500k log, and single coils with 250k log but that is just a rule of thumb. With a fairly powerful humbucker such as the AT-1 I would go with a 500k log volume pot and add a 470k resistor in parallel for the single coil positions so that they see a load of close to 250k.
4) With only the neck p/u replaced (Fender Single replaced with Cruiser Bridge), the Fender Single coil in the middle by comparison is slightly louder and with lots more treble. Does this sound normal? I believe it will balance out once I put the other Cruiser (middle pos.) and AT-1 (bridge) in.
I don't know the stock pickups in your guitar so it's difficult to say whether this is normal or incorrect. But with all the pickups replaced at least the Cruisers should be in balance with each other. The AT-1 will have quite a bit more output. Many players like a higher output bridge humbucker in HSS, others want a humbucker that is closer in output to the single coils. It's personal preference.
Cheers Stephan
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Thanks Stephan, that is helpful info!
-Gary K
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Followup to my OP:
I now have both the Cruiser Bridges (in the neck and middle pos.) and the AT-1 installed in the HSS MIM Standard Strat.
Overall I'm happy with the sound. To me still sounds like a Strat, but maybe with Les Paul flavor.
1) With the new pickup set, if I hit the Big E or the A string too hard, it makes a noticeable "click" sound that carries through to and is amplified out of the amp. I never had this with the old pickup set. I don't know if this is a nature of the pickups (I'm not used to them yet), or if maybe the Strat setup changed since I had the strings off and on at least 3 times while installing and testing the new pickups. I might have to take the guitar to a local tech for an opinion on this.
2) Seems to sound good (enough for me) even with the 250K pots already in the Strat.
3) Guitar Center shipped the black AT-1 pickup model with the black metal cover. For the Strat I had to remove that metal cover and remove the wax potting to make it like the model shipped without the metal cover (which is what I thought I was getting).
4) I left the AT-1 wired in serial for switch pos. 2, where black and white are twisted together but not connected to the 5-way switch. I get a nice Strat pos. 2 "quack" (AT-1 bridge wired serial, + Cruiser middle wired serial). As was explained to me, there is supposed to be a noise reduction benefit with "even" numbers of coils. So a series wired middle Cruiser (2 coils) + a series wired AT-1 (2 coils) has a noise cancelling configuration. This is the main reason I went with this configuration.
5) Those tiny wire leads are a pain to work with! For me, they don't strip (insulation) easy, and it is very easy to break off some or all of the wire strands when stripping the insulation. For me, working with those tiny wires (without breaking them) was the hardest part of the job.
6) I think I get a bit of noise/hum here and there, depending on if I am touching the strings or not. I run through an effects processor (Digitech GSP1101) with patches with a noise gate active. So I will try it also without the noise gate to further investigate the possible noise issue.
So my remaining issues are: 1) The "click" sound I get if I hit the big-E or A string with any aggressive picking strokes. I have to back off my pick attack to avoid this "click" sound. I'm not an "aggressive attack" player, as I play covers of Classic Rock songs. So I've really got to get this guitar back to 100% playability. 2) The noise/hum I hear occasionally as I am holding and playing the guitar.
Thanks,
-Gary K
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Have you set the pickups higher than your old ones? If so the strings may hit them on hard attacks. Even if you have them at the same height than the old ones, try to lower them a little.
Ad 4) You always need a pair of coils to get a humcancelling effect. The AT-1 with both coils in series (or parallel) will achieve this, so will the Cruiser with both coils in series. But as soon as you split the AT-1 you will lose the humcancelling effect, either played alone or with the Cruiser.
Cheers Stephan
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Stephan I'll check that out (pickup height).
Also I used your info about (AT-1) twisting black and white wires but not connecting to the 5-way, leaving AT-1 in series always.
Once again, you provide very helpful info! :)
Thanks again!
-Gary K
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I have no idea how AT's guitars are set up
I had a chance to play an Ibanez Andy Timmons model (made in Indonesia) today. In that guitar the humbucker is automatically split when used with the middle pickup. The volume control controls all pickups. The upper tone pot controls the neck pickup. The lower tone pot controls the bridge pickup.
Not sure whether I would want this set up. I would go with one volume and one tone control and use the second tone control as a blend control - more tones available this way. And I would probably follow RayBarbeeMusic's recommendation to use a 5-way super switch so that the humbucker can be wired in parallel when used with the middle pickup.
In the guitar I played the AT-1 was installed very close to the strings. The Cruisers were not as close. The AT-1 was substantially louder than the Cruisers. If the guitar was mine I would have backed the AT-1 off quite a bit.
Cheers Stephan
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Lowering the At-1 makes it sound brighter, and thinner. I've wired a 1 meg trim-pot to mine (internally). Only requires a tiny turn to balance with the other pups, and very little change in tone.
cheers, Bill.
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Adding a trim pot (series resistance) to lower the output will also necessarily roll off the high end. Not necessarily a bad thing depending on your preferences.
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My guess is he used a 1M trim wired as a variable resistor from the bridge pickup's hot connection to ground. That would not add any series resistance, only increase the load on the bridge pickup while leaving the other pickups unaffected. Of course the increased load would be there with any combination involving the bridge pickup.
Cheers Stephan
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That's how I did it, Stephan.
I haven't noticed much loss in highs, and as Ray said, some loss wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Especially as I use the At-1 split quite a lot.
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Oh ok, in parallel it is equivalent to lowering the value of the volume pot. That would definitely reduce highs on the AT-1. 1M in parallel with 500k pot (at least one that actually measures close to that) you'd get 330k, drop the pot and the value does down further. Output would also decrease.
I've observed a marked drop in high end presence going from 500k to 410k on an AT-1. It gets fatter and warmer, but loses some articulation. Go lower, the effect increases quickly. If you aren't hearing much of it, probably your rig isn't reproducing those frequencies faithfully to start with. Not right or wrong as long as it works for you.
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going from 500k to 410k
A 2M2 resistor in parallel to the 500k pot would get you to about 410k, which means that if you want the total load to be between 410k and 500k you would need a 2M7, 3M3 or 4M7 resistor. A 4M7 in parallel would get you a total load of about 450k.
Cheers Stephan
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Or you could actually measure the "500K' pots! ;D
I find the actual measurements are between about 350k and 585k. I buy quite a few at a time, measure them, and mark them. That way when I know what I want for a specific purpose, I can grab it and go.
Even if you are using a parallel resistor to get different values in different switch positions, you should know the actual value of the pot so you know where you're starting from. Then if you use 1-2% metal film resistors, you know exactly where you're at and you get a feel for how different pickups respond to that.
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I measure them, too. Most of mine are between 450k and 480k with some going to 510k. I like the higher values for neck humbuckers.
There is another reason that the actual pot value matters. Lower values provide less series resistance when turned down, and less series resistance means less loss of highs throughout the pot travel (unless a treble bypass circuit aka treble bleed is used).
Cheers Stephan
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Well not exactly. The lower ground resistance drops the high end more. 250k in series is 250k in series, but 250k in series with a 550k pot when turned down is brighter than 250k in series with a 380k pot turned down. It gets complicated, but the best rule of thumb is, higher value, sharper and larger resonant peak. Lower value, broader and smaller resonant peak.
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Is it me, or do all the pickups in the Andy Timmons wiring scheme see 250k to ground, even though all pots are 500k? There are 2 500k volume knobs...
https://d2emr0qhzqfj88.cloudfront.net/s3fs-public/diagrams/AT300.pdf
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According to that scheme all positions see 250k to ground except for the position which has the bridge humbucker alone - that one sees 500k to ground.
Cheers Stephan
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250k load on a cruiser bridge is going to be pretty dark.
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Thanks for the quick replies.
It looks like the bridge still sees 250k in that diagram, as it is always connected to the neck/middle pot outside lug as well. Have any of you tried this exact wiring, or the AT-1 with 250k vol / 500k tone? Cruisers with 250k volume sound good to me.
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Why worry about 250K vs 500k pots? Cruisers are not like the Area and Virtual Vintage pickups. Cruisers are made to work with 500k pots, just like humbuckers. Here is what the Dimarzio wiring instructions for Cruisers say: "500K is the most common resistance value most guitar companies and players employ with humbuckers for both volume and tone controls. Using 250K controls will result in a little warmer sound and a slight drop in power." With the Area and Virtual Vintage pickup lines, it says "All models were designed to work with 250K controls. For a brighter overall sound, try 500K controls."
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Very interesting. Now DiMarzio specify 250k for both volume and tone on both Cruiser models in the tech sections.
Whatever - it is personal preference anyway. I have a Cruiser neck model in the neck spot of one telecaster with a 280k volume pot and a 250k tone pot. Sounds right to me in that guitar. Had the Cruiser bridge model in another guitar also in the neck spot with 500k volume and tone controls - sounded too bright and hollow and had too much squirk on the pick attack, in particular on the 1st and 2nd strings. A lower pot value would have made it sound more pleasing to my ear.
Cheers Stephan
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Yes, agreed, Cruisers sound a little harsh with a 500k volume, IMO. I'm assuming the AT-1 and Cruisers with 250k volume and 500k tone will sound better than with all 500k, but there is only one way to find out!
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but there is only one way to find out!
+1. Please report your results.
Thanks,
Stephan
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You can use 500k pots for volume and tone for your humbucker and then solder a 500k resistor from the switch lug where your Cruiser is attached to ground to make the Cruiser "see" 250k pots. Best of both worlds. I have done this with the Area single coil I have in my HSH Ibanez RG's middle position. Works great. (I used 560k resistors because I like the singles a little brighter) This video shows how the resistor works:
https://youtu.be/SJZ2Do7Ywx0 (https://youtu.be/SJZ2Do7Ywx0)
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Yep - that is what I would have done had I kept the Cruiser in that guitar. I have since put in a Firebird pickup- that one works fine with 500k pots.
Cheers Stephan