DiMarzio Forum
DimarzioForum.Com => The Pickup Place => Topic started by: jovima69 on May 18, 2015, 01:38:21 PM
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Hey all,
I installed a Crunchlab/Liquifire 7 set in my RG7321. From the 12th fret to the 24th fret on the high e & b strings, a note will sustain for no more than 2 seconds. Initially after the install, the high e would not sustain at all, but I backed the p/u's off, and the string seemed to "sustain", but to the level it's at now, approx 2 seconds. I am a relative newbie when it comes to guitar maintenance, but I am motivated, and willing to learn. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.
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The closer you get the pickup magnet to the strings, the more it pulls on the string, slowing its vibration down and killing sustain. Do you have a set-up ruler to accurately measure your pickup height?
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Thanks for the response. I set the pickup height based on the FAQ's from the DiMarzio site with a machinists rule. I'm not ready to go to the tech just yet... I bought new strings last night, and will see how that affects the sustain.
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A lot of sustain issues are caused by bad fretwork, specifically not enough fall away.
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Hey all,
I installed a Crunchlab/Liquifire 7 set in my RG7321. From the 12th fret to the 24th fret on the high e & b strings, a note will sustain for no more than 2 seconds. Initially after the install, the high e would not sustain at all, but I backed the p/u's off, and the string seemed to "sustain", but to the level it's at now, approx 2 seconds. I am a relative newbie when it comes to guitar maintenance, but I am motivated, and willing to learn. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.
How about prior installing those pups? Did you have any measurements of sustain ?
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Also does sustain stays the same from 23th fret to 24th? If yes this is hardly related to fretwork.
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Also does sustain stays the same from 23th fret to 24th? If yes this is hardly related to fretwork.
That would not be enough evidence to say that fret issues aren't the cause.
If the action is too low and/or there are any high frets, that is the most likely cause of lack of sustain.
In my experience it's also the most likely cause of people complaining about "cocked wah" tone from Dimarzios. Fret buzz can cause the fundamental tone to die while one or more harmonics continue to sustain, e.g. so-called "cocked wah" tone.
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Also does sustain stays the same from 23th fret to 24th? If yes this is hardly related to fretwork.
That would not be enough evidence to say that fret issues aren't the cause.
If the action is too low and/or there are any high frets, that is the most likely cause of lack of sustain.
In my experience it's also the most likely cause of people complaining about "cocked wah" tone from Dimarzios. Fret buzz can cause the fundamental tone to die while one or more harmonics continue to sustain, e.g. so-called "cocked wah" tone.
that's why the "hardly" word was used. Ok. let me re-phrase. If the pattern of the note dying out is the same on 23th and 24th fret, then it definitely is not the fretwork.
IMHO buzzing was never the problem for lack of sustain. If the woods want to cancel a note they will find their way to do it, no matter the string action or the pup height. If a string wants to ring, it will find its way to do it, even with imperfect fretwork. (provided chocking is not extreme)
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What was posted above is not correct.
I work on this stuff for a living. Bad fretwork can and usually does cause sustain issues and most people don't know it.
Saying that "if the sustain is the same on the 23rd and 24th fret" it isn't due to bad fretwork is just absolutely wrong.
You're talking about 12th to end. Most guitars I see have some degree of rise from the 12th fret to the end instead of fall-away, which is a drop off, ideally gently curved. The last 2 frets might be fine but both are too high and everything after the 12th might be rubbish as well.
There is enough bad information on the internet without posts like that.
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There can be many reasons for why a guitar does or does not sustain. To assure that there is nothing impeding sustain it should be checked that
a) the pickups are not so close to the strings that their magnetic field interferes with the string movement and
b) the string movement is not inhibited by the frets.
Eliminating a) is rather easy. Back the pickups way off, then bring them closer to the strings until you notice an out-of-tuneness when playing chords in the upper registers. Then back the pickups a bit down until the out-of-tuneness goes away.
b) can be due to many reasons, including an improper neck relief, improper fret work, not enough fall away or hump/rise in the fretboard or an improperly low action.
Of course a guitar with all these problems eliminated can still not sustain well - that would then be the limitation set by the woods and construction of the guitar. But whether a guitar has that limitation or not can only be finally determined after all inhibiting factors have been eliminated.
On the other hand there may be well sustaining guitars inspite of having the above described problems. Well - how much better could they sustain with those problems removed?
Cheers Stephan
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What was posted above is not correct.
I work on this stuff for a living. Bad fretwork can and usually does cause sustain issues and most people don't know it.
Saying that "if the sustain is the same on the 23rd and 24th fret" it isn't due to bad fretwork is just absolutely wrong.
You're talking about 12th to end. Most guitars I see have some degree of rise from the 12th fret to the end instead of fall-away, which is a drop off, ideally gently curved. The last 2 frets might be fine but both are too high and everything after the 12th might be rubbish as well.
"You're talking about 12th to end."
no I am talking about 23nd and 24th fret. It is obvious that if sustain sucks on 24th, and also sucks the same way on 23th, whereas it sustain for ages in buzzy 17th, then obviously the problem is not the freaking fretwork. You don't have to be a nobel prize winner to understand this.
I have researched the topic of sustain in so much advanced ways (physics, vibrations), that I think that someone trying to explain sustain problems by blaming the fretwrok "silver-bullet"-style, and bringing the fretwork in any discussion about sustain, is just downright retarded.
If a guitar's woods want to kill sustain they will do it, no matter how perfect the fretwork is, or whether the "drop off" is there or not.
The reason I am writing this, is to prevent people from investing fortunes (upgrades, repairs, mods, etc..) on guitars that will never deliver.
You have told us more than once that you do this for a living, I am a scientist who does not live on doing simple fixes on ppl's guitars.
There is enough bad information on the internet without posts like that.
I dont know about the internet, but I know that places like this forum are dying out due to behaviors like yours : semi-knowledgable professionals using the forum to promote their own interests, muting ppl who do not contribute to their interests, or have a different view or are just plain smarter than them.
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But whether a guitar has that limitation or not can only be finally determined after all inhibiting factors have been eliminated.
Or let me rephrase : after having spent their hard-earned money on "pros".
On the other hand there may be well sustaining guitars inspite of having the above described problems. Well - how much better could they sustain with those problems removed?
IMO not much. A sustaining guitar will do so even under the most hostile conditions. (stratitis, bad fretwork, etc)
After all, its not that hard for someone to raise the action and see if good sustain gets even better, albeit sustain is rarely noticed unless of course it is a true a nuisance, plus ppl rarely modify smth that already works.
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But whether a guitar has that limitation or not can only be finally determined after all inhibiting factors have been eliminated.
Or let me rephrase : after having spent their hard-earned money on "pros".
That was not was I meant to say. Setting pickups in a manner to remove stratitis is something that any player can learn to do without having to spend anything except to purchase a screwdriver (if the household does not already have one). Same for setting the action a tad higher if it was too low. That does not cost anything.
If after these simple adjustments you find that the guitar's action is now way too high then the neck relief and/or frets could be the culprit. If the guitar at that point sustains well it's up to the individual to decide whether or not to take it further. If the guitar at that point does not sustain well it is still a good point to decide that the guitar is probably not worth to go further.
Cheers Stephan
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Typically when someone brings in a guitar with a guitar that lacks sustain on the upper frets, there's a series of things I check. Neck straightness, fret condition, action, string saddle and the pickups themselves(usually just to see if it's too high). More often than not it's an issue with the neck not being straight or a high fret. Every once in a while it'll be due to flattened frets from a lot of wear.
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IMO the buzzing must be *horrible* in order to be the real cause for lack of sustain, in which case the guitar not only sustains bad, but it also sounds awful anyway. So we are not really talking about bad sustain in this case, but for a nastily buzzing guitar.
I had buzzing problems with my Ibanez uv70p on 1st fret, high E, cause of ultra low action, yet, still the sustain was on par with open high E, which means that the energy left *after* the initial choking is enough for the string to vibrate for a long time, if counter wood/hardware vibrations could be eliminated.
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IMO the buzzing must be *horrible* in order to be the real cause for lack of sustain, in which case the guitar not only sustains bad, but it also sounds awful anyway. So we are not really talking about bad sustain in this case, but for a nastily buzzing guitar.
I wish I had a convenient way to say this more politely, but your opinion is incorrect. Horrible fret buzz will obviously kill tone, but even slight fret buzz will impact sustain.
It's not witchcraft. It's science.
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IMO the buzzing must be *horrible* in order to be the real cause for lack of sustain, in which case the guitar not only sustains bad, but it also sounds awful anyway. So we are not really talking about bad sustain in this case, but for a nastily buzzing guitar.
I wish I had a convenient way to say this more politely, but your opinion is incorrect. Horrible fret buzz will obviously kill tone, but even slight fret buzz will impact sustain.
It's not witchcraft. It's science.
Science says that if we take friction out of the equation, (and indeed after the first fraction of a second on a buzzing note friction stops, the string no longer hits subsequent frets), then the string, with the energy left should ring out for ever.
Slight fret buzz might impact sustain, BUT NEVER TO A POINT THAT IT WILL MAKE AN INHERENTLY GOOD SUSTAINING NOTE SOUNDING HORRIBLE. So??? What kills sustain then?
If you dont have the chance to verify this simple phenomenon, the Internet is full of such evidence :
http://www.jemsite.com/forums/f16/why-does-my-rga121-have-the-worst-sustain-of-any-guitar-ive-ever-used-62791.html
Really... my RGA121 has the worst sustain of any guitar I've ever played and I can't figure out why. My cheap-o B.C. Rich has better sustain. I've had my RGA121 set up twice, had strings from 10s to extra thick meant for detuning on it, and I've even tried tilting the saddles back to put more pressure on the strings all to no avail.
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The problem has to be bridge/saddle related. The 24th fret on the B.C. Rich (with it's crap PUs) has pretty damn good sustain.
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One thing though about these small suggestions (as opposed to major ones like getting new this or that) is that all my other guitars are set up relatively the same way and they don't suffer from any sustain problems. In fact my B.C. Rich hasn't been set up properly for a long time and has buzzing every which way and sustain better than my Les Paul that I had professionally set up just a couple months ago.
Examples like the above are *numerous* on the net. Everybody seems to suggest smth about buzzing or string action, which almost NEVER is the real cause of the problem.
You guys make a very serious mistake when you leave the most important factor out : vibrations of neck/body/bridge.
I was about to post here in a separate thread a problem with my uv70p, which sustains at 24th fret less than two seconds, but I guess this would end up in getting replies about .... fretwork and buzzing. Or the pup height (which IMO is also rarely the problem, especially when we compare sustain in adjacent frets)
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The falloff that Ray is talking about is one of the least highlighted things I've read about with guitars. And that's a shame. I've also heard it called a "waterfall". It has multiple benefits and no downsides I can think of, at least not from a playing perspective.
As far as sustain, there can be a lot of things, which have all been pretty much covered in this thread already.
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The falloff that Ray is talking about is one of the least highlighted things I've read about with guitars. And that's a shame. I've also heard it called a "waterfall". It has multiple benefits and no downsides I can think of, at least not from a playing perspective.
As far as sustain, there can be a lot of things, which have all been pretty much covered in this thread already.
the falloff might be beneficial for guitars with raised tang profile necks, or in the general case for guitars with small radius.
On shred guitars (e.g. with radius > 14") it just increases the string action on high frets.
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I am actually referring to shred guitars.
Have you tried one with a waterfall? Did it come with it or was it done afterward? Was the guitar set up accordingly? And just how much was taken off each feet as it went down?
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I am actually referring to shred guitars.
Have you tried one with a waterfall? Did it come with it or was it done afterward? Was the guitar set up accordingly? And just how much was taken off each feet as it went down?
If you consider the geometry of the freted string in relation to the fretboard (and subsequently rest of frets) and bridge , you will see that the angle between the string and the fretboard increases as we move towards the higher frets. Additionally, taking into consideration that shorter string lengths vibrate less, one can simply see that the fall away technique is not needed at all, and all it does is raise the action height on those frets.
Yes I have played with such a strat, in fact fall away just helps avoiding buzz on big bends on strats with typical 9.5" or smaller radius. IMHO When someone tries to form a fall away on the frets of a large radius shred guitar, then smth must be terribly wrong with it.
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Coming back to it.
After about 8 months long adventure trying to get some sustain on frets 22->24 on my Ibanez UV70p, I am 101% certain, that *severe* sustain problems, are absolutely unrelated to "stratitis", string action or anything fret related.
Severe sustain problems have to do with materials, parts and their vibration.
Yes, I gained those two valuable additional seconds of sustain, so I know for sure.
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I have researched the topic of sustain in so much advanced ways (physics, vibrations), that I think that someone trying to explain sustain problems by blaming the fretwrok "silver-bullet"-style, and bringing the fretwork in any discussion about sustain, is just downright retarded.
I said it could be the problem and I'd look at it. I don't know whether it is without seeing the guitar, but it is the #1 sustain issue I see.
I work on this stuff ALL THE TIME and my specialty is getting guitars to play clean with action most people say is impossible. I know WTF I'm talking about. You, on the other hand, have no idea.
Fretwork does not have to "buzz badly" to be the culprit. Not at all.
There is so much wrong in your posts it would take too long and be a fruitless exercise to correct. Try actually doing some fretwork for a decade or 2 then post again.
That is the problem with forums. People who don't actually do this stuff day in day out want to pop off and talk about things they know nothing about, and will argue with you til they are blue in the face with incorrect information. Its like a layman going on a surgery forum and arguing with surgeons about brain surgery. I try hard not to get into it with the ignorant because I know how useless it is to try to explain relativity to a chimp. The chimp just gets upset and the explainer just gets frustrated.
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I have researched the topic of sustain in so much advanced ways (physics, vibrations), that I think that someone trying to explain sustain problems by blaming the fretwrok "silver-bullet"-style, and bringing the fretwork in any discussion about sustain, is just downright retarded.
I said it could be the problem and I'd look at it. I don't know whether it is without seeing the guitar, but it is the #1 sustain issue I see.
I work on this stuff ALL THE TIME and my specialty is getting guitars to play clean with action most people say is impossible. I know WTF I'm talking about. You, on the other hand, have no idea.
Fretwork does not have to "buzz badly" to be the culprit. Not at all.
There is so much wrong in your posts it would take too long and be a fruitless exercise to correct. Try actually doing some fretwork for a decade or 2 then post again.
That is the problem with forums. People who don't actually do this stuff day in day out want to pop off and talk about things they know nothing about, and will argue with you til they are blue in the face with incorrect information. Its like a layman going on a surgery forum and arguing with surgeons about brain surgery. I try hard not to get into it with the ignorant because I know how useless it is to try to explain relativity to a chimp. The chimp just gets upset and the explainer just gets frustrated.
The amount of BS by "professionals" on the net is unbelievable. All the fretwork of the world COULD NOT SOLVE SUSTAIN PROBLEMS ON THE LAST FRET FOR JESUS CHRIST'S SAKE! Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.
I now have my Ibanez's action on 0.9mm high E @24th fret, 1.3mm low B @24th fret, with 4 seconds of sustain on 24th and more than 5 secs on 17->22.
Thing is that I SOLVED MY PROBLEM, by experimenting with the amount of body wood under the heel, offsets, neck heel position, screws. If I trusted "high-school"-level "techs" (like you) they would drag me for years without any solution.
Truth is my friend, that it is apparent that your knowledge, and imagination are both limited. You parallelize yourself with doctors, which is again laughable. (You also mention relativity in this context which made things more funny, since all you do is repeating the word "fretwork" like a holly grail of sustain, not very scientific ). I gave the link to a scientific paper on sustain before, but since your lazy finding it here it comes again, (happy reading) :
https://www.unibw.de/lrt4/mechanik/mitarbeiter/ehem-mitarbeiter/hfleischer/deadspots-en
( I am sorry to disappoint you but you won't find the keyword "buzz" or "fretwork" in the above doc).
After you understand this, come back to talk about sustain, after you promise that you won't bring up this idiotic argument about fretwork again.
In short :
any vibration of the medium (neck or body/bridge) at a frequency near (or a multiple of) the fundamental string frequency at a fret which constitutes an anti-node of the wave, will most likely result in very poor sustain.
The way to solve sustain problems is to minimize those vibrations, while not sacrificing (e.g. block the trem) the functionality of the guitar.