DiMarzio Forum
DimarzioForum.Com => The Pickup Place => Topic started by: Virtuoso on June 18, 2019, 08:30:37 PM
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Hello :D
I was wondering if these switching options are possible ? I will be using a super switch and DPDT miniswitch.
Pickups I plan on using are a Titan Neck, Fast Track 1 Middle and D Sonic Bridge.
I know that the coil tap off swithing is possible, but not quite shure about the coil tap on switching. So before I go out and buy the stuff and hand it over to a luthier I want to make shure if this switching option I made are even possible :o
(https://i.imgur.com/7IwAxSr.png)
I'd appreciate your thoughts :)
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I dunno about the splits on the bottom, but at least the top configuration seems like it could work with a super switch. You might need a 4pdt or something more involved to handle the splits and the neck + middle position though.
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Your switching system is overly complicated with several tones that would be similar anyways. In a live situation, it won’t work. Just too much fiddling around. Maybe you’re better off with a traditional 5 way switch, push/pull for series wiring/parallel wiring. This will keep everything humbucking/noise free. Parallel wiring simulates single coils, so you don’t lose anything. You can do a push/pull for a blow switch mod that send the bridge humbucker directly to the jack. That would give you instant lead tones, from any rhythm setting. Personally, I prefer push/ push pots and find them more user friendly. The mini switches just create more clutter and the break easily. They are not as durable as the oak grisby/ crl types IMHO
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I want to make shure if this switching option I made are even possible
Hopefully I’m mistaken when I say “no; I don’t believe it will work.” A single DPDT switch won’t give you the switching options of 1, 2, or 3 in the bottom row. The good news is that these can be achieved, but will require additional switches:
A super switch will give you four independent combinations of the six pickup coils, with five selections of the soldering points shared between the four switch poles (determined by soldering bridge-points between two or more of the four sets of five contacts your leads will be going to). Using a DPDT to divert some of those coils to ground removes them from play - They are no longer available to the super switch unless you’re using an additional switch to toggle between which pickup coils are sent to ground by the DPDT.
Let’s review the consequences of each signal path in the bottom switching diagram, and how they affect the others:
Position 1 has the inside neck coil sent to ground by the DPDT; which makes it unavailable in position 2.
And because positions 2 and 4 without the DPDT (top diagram row) engaged sends one middle pickup coil to ground, engaging a DPDT to reverse which middle coil is sent to ground in that position requires reversing the leads of the middle humbucker. To achieve this and the coil splitting for the neck pickup as a modifier to switch position 2 requires two DPDT switches (as one DPDT is required for middle humbucker lead/“phase” reversal, and another is required to split the bridge and neck humbuckers).
Position 3 requires yet another additional switch: A SPDT to switch between two leads jumpered off from the super switch: One carrying the inside neck and bridge humbucker coils in parallel, and one carrying the middle humbucker in series. Note that any superswitch position affecting these coils only functions based on which of these two signals the SPDT is feeding it. Each switch diverts signal either to or away from the next switch in the series; and parallel switching paths containing paths to ground are pitfalls, unless you’re aware of how each switch position affects the others.
In summary: Your combinations of 6 pickup coils for the sake of humcancelling can be achieved but, as BluesJam suggests, series/parallel switching is a simplified way of achieving singlecoil tones between three humbuckers. Your diagrams are the messy alternative: Having to keep track of which of six coils are available between 13 switching combinations, with each dependent upon a particular arrangement of binary coil states, and some only possible through three or more switches being engaged.
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1) traditional 5 way Switch
1) 500k push/push or push/push pot for blow switch mod (volume pot)
1) 500k push/push or push/pull pot for series/parallel wiring (tone pot)
This option would give you full output and single coil sounds. All positions him canceling. Blow switch mod for instant lead tones from ant rhythm setting. Everything is quick and easy in a live setting.
10 distinct tones plus blow switch mod (can be used as a passive boost for solos) Do you really need anything else?
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I thin I would opt for the traditional switch and the push/pull pots.
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Your switching system is overly complicated with several tones that would be similar anyways. In a live situation, it won’t work. Just too much fiddling around.
In summary: Your combinations of 6 pickup coils for the sake of humcancelling can be achieved but, as BluesJam suggests, series/parallel switching is a simplified way of achieving singlecoil tones between three humbuckers. Your diagrams are the messy alternative: Having to keep track of which of six coils are available between 13 switching combinations, with each dependent upon a particular arrangement of binary coil states, and some only possible through three or more switches being engaged.
Wow, okay I'll forget about my switching option :o I see now how overly complicated this would be. I appreciate the detailed answers :D
What kind of switching options can be made using a standard 5 switch or a super switch, a DPDT miniswitch or volum/tone pot switch ? I still want the switching option when coil tap is off. But I am open for whatever switching option can be made when coil tap is on. Would a true single coil make the installment easier ? With the cost of not being humcancelling ?
I was looking at the Ibanez EGEN and TAM series when I made my own switching options. But they use a true single coil not a pickup in the middle.
TAM
(https://archive.is/WDqVi/2730236365ec64e6685fc07102afb563a8e40060.png)
EGEN
(https://www.ibanez.com/common/product_artist_file/file/puswitch_14.png)
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I would forgo the split coil options. Parallel wiring in sound uses both coils independently, so you will get hum canceling single coil tones. But regardless, humbuckers in series will be louder, so there is going to be a compromise in output. Unless you wire resistors into the circuit to bring the down the output of a the pickup in series to match the output in the other configurations. But, now we’re getting into very complex wiring schemes. You won’t need a super switch, if you wire as above. Unfortunately, you will have 11 options and only need 4 tops.
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Another option, use a (1) 3 way switch (1) volume push/pull blow switch; (1) tone pot push/pull parallel option; and (1) blend pot for the middle pickup.
The 3-way switch controls the full size humbucker options. The blend will give you all the 5-way tonal options, plus all pickups on together and neck and bridge together options; plus blow switch.
This would be the optimum simple but most effective setup
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I would forgo the split coil options. Parallel wiring in sound uses both coils independently, so you will get hum canceling single coil tones. But regardless, humbuckers in series will be louder, so there is going to be a compromise in output. Unless you wire resistors into the circuit to bring the down the output of a the pickup in series to match the output in the other configurations. But, now we’re getting into very complex wiring schemes. You won’t need a super switch, if you wire as above. Unfortunately, you will have 11 options and only need 4 tops.
Another option, use a (1) 3 way switch (1) volume push/pull blow switch; (1) tone pot push/pull parallel option; and (1) blend pot for the middle pickup.
The 3-way switch controls the full size humbucker options. The blend will give you all the 5-way tonal options, plus all pickups on together and neck and bridge together options; plus blow switch.
This would be the optimum simple but most effective setup
I only use the bridge, the middle coil and the neck when using distortion (the reason I wanted a pickup in the middle, to get rid of the hum). I only use the pos 2 and 4 on cleans on a HSH config.
I have a HH config guitar with a 3 way switch and I really like the 2 pos/bridge inner and neck inner coil on cleans. Thats why I wanted to install a coil tap/pot switch to get that split sound on a HSH config.
I am not the most techincal when it comes to wiring so pardon me if I am repeating questions :)
My switching option will be too dificult with a pickup in the middle (if I want to split it) If I were to use a true single coil or a pickup in the middle (without splitting it) the EGEN, TAM and my own switching would be possible ? but with the cost of not being humcanceling when using middle coil alone (when true single coil is used) and when coil tap/pot switch is on ?
I'm thinking whether I should just drop the coil tap/pot switch and be fully humcanceling in all 5 positions. Or have 10 different options but be full of noise and hum with the exception of being humcanceling in pos 1 and 5 when coil tap/pot is off.
Did I understand it correctly ? :o
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Your wiring scheme makes no sense. Although J prefer single coil pickups, if I had your setup I’d do a CRL 5 way switch, (2) push/push pots for parallel wiring and blow switch . 100% hum cancelling and you have single coil like tones. That is your best option IMHO. YMMV
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https://web.archive.org/web/20171209125357/http://www.dimarzio.com/sites/default/files/diagrams/hshep1112_1v1t_f.pdf
I think this setup would probably give you all the sounds you want except middle on it's own, but you could add a DPDT/4PDT to go to just that with one switch. Optionally, if you're more attached to middle than neck+bridge, the standard HSH setup with autosplits will do that but with no middle hum-cancelling. I don't think there's an easy way to go about that as you'd need more poles than any switch manufacturer really works with.
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Would the EGEN setup work with a pickup in the middle instead of a single coil ? This is the closest switching option that I would like to have.
(https://i.imgur.com/nkrK4fr.png)
I'll just buy all kinds of switches that have been mentioned here and hand it over to a luthier I guess. I have already bought 4 pickups by DiMarzio for this guitar I didn't like until I found the ones I liked, so buyng more stuff won't make me :'(
I still have no idea how all these modern guitar artists pull off their split modes :( I even saw a guy with a SSS config with rail pickups and coil tap splitting the rail single coils :o But this is kind of giving me an impression that splitting pickups is kind of impossible ???
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You’re going to have a Swiss army guitar with a lot of useless combinations... for just because. And many of them will almost be inaudible to the casual listener in a band setting. Have fun and think about practicality beforehand. Maybe you should buy an Esquire or Les Paul Jr. They’re simply the best in my book.
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It's not that you can't split rails or whatever, it's that the combinations you're trying to get need switches that have more contacts than anyone currently makes. If you want to pull out your electrical engineer hat and design a 5- or 6-pole 5-way switch, combined with a 4pdt for splitting, you could get there. But the parts physically don't exist.
The modern artists pulling off split modes don't have setups like this: they'll pick 5 sounds they actually use, put them on the 5-way, and then maybe have a switch for splitting. When you're wiring something, try to think about the sounds and positions you actually use regularly, and have them be the quickest to access. If there's something else you absolutely need, then add an extra switch, but if it's not necessary, leave it out. It's just gonna get in your way.
I'm not gonna tell you to get an Esquire, but I'll say this: go to a guitar store, get an HSH ibanez, a Tele, a LP, and an SSS strat. Plug them all in and try every position for at least 3 minutes. Take notes on what you liked about each one and why and what you'd use them for and whatever. Then make an informed decision about what sounds are essential for you and you need on quick access, and make those the ones available on the 5-way. If you desperately need some other position, then consider adding it to the switch, but I'd recommend giving yourself a week or so to play around with it before you do that, because you'll be able to get a feel for how you use each position and whether you're actually missing anything.
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+1 Harlow.
I would only add plugging into a pedal and switching pedals and guitar settings at he same time. Many famous guitarists have techs changing pedals/patches on the fly. Unfortunately, I don’t have a tech on payroll. My Esquire, (1) pickup and 3 usable tones is my favorite go to axe. Sometimes keeping it simple is the better choice.
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+1 Harlow.
I would only add plugging into a pedal and switching pedals and guitar settings at he same time. Many famous guitarists have techs changing pedals/patches on the fly. Unfortunately, I don’t have a tech on payroll. My Esquire, (1) pickup and 3 usable tones is my favorite go to axe. Sometimes keeping it simple is the better choice.
Ahh but now Boss makes affordable 4-, 5-, and 8-loop pedal switchers so no excuse BluesJam ;D ;D ;D
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You’re going to have a Swiss army guitar with a lot of useless combinations... for just because. Maybe you should buy an Esquire or Les Paul Jr.
;D I have 5 super strats from Ibanez so I'll pass. The TAM and EGEN switchings which I posted are wirings for well respected guitarists of this era, I understand this looks strange and not of a necessity (if one is still listening or playing from a certain era) but modern guitar evolution is a reality and most of us younger people don't bother with the 80s, 90s or even early 2000s blues scale guitar playing.
Anyway thank you for the detailed information you gave me on this thread BluesJam :)
I'm not gonna tell you to get an Esquire, but I'll say this: go to a guitar store, get an HSH ibanez, a Tele, a LP, and an SSS strat. Plug them all in and try every position for at least 3 minutes. Take notes on what you liked about each one and why and what you'd use them for and whatever. Then make an informed decision about what sounds are essential for you and you need on quick access, and make those the ones available on the 5-way. If you desperately need some other position, then consider adding it to the switch, but I'd recommend giving yourself a week or so to play around with it before you do that, because you'll be able to get a feel for how you use each position and whether you're actually missing anything.
;D For not telling me to get an Esquire :D
I grew up with Teles, Strats and Les Paul's. I liked the strats and LP's for different reasons, the hybrid of a strat and les paul together is what I call my HSH Ibanez's.
Thing is, I'm going to make the story short as possible. All guitars of mine have DiMarzios, this new particular guitar is dropped down to drop C. So after trying 3 different models I finally got satisfied with the set I have now.
As I meantioned earlier, bridge is used for solos and rhythm (distortion), middle coil alone for percussive slap riffs (distortion) neck for soloing (distortion)
2 pos (clean) 3 pos (clean) on all HSH guitars. On my HH config I love the 3 pos inner neck and inner bridge. In other words I use ALL positions and really just wanted to see if there was a way to get that HH bridge and neck split in to a HSH config with a rail pickup in the middle.
So last question:
The EGEN wiring I posted which is a HSH config and can coil tap it to use the inner neck and inner bridge. Is it possible to use a rail coil/pickup in the middle ? and split it in pos 2 and 3 when coil tap is off ? Or is it just possible but both rails will be active and not splitted in pos 2 and 3 when coil tap is off ? :o
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So last question:
The EGEN wiring I posted which is a HSH config and can coil tap it to use the inner neck and inner bridge. Is it possible to use a rail coil/pickup in the middle ? and split it in pos 2 and 3 when coil tap is off ? Or is it just possible but both rails will be active and not splitted in pos 2 and 3 when coil tap is off ? :o
You can use a rail, but no production superswitch I know of has enough contacts for the specific switching with all the splits you want so if you're really set on this you're gonna have to get one custom made and that's a lot of $$$
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You’re going to have a Swiss army guitar with a lot of useless combinations... for just because. And many of them will almost be inaudible to the casual listener in a band setting. Have fun and think about practicality beforehand. Maybe you should buy an Esquire or Les Paul Jr. They’re simply the best in my book.
I've had swiss army guitars before with more pickup combinations that I can make use of and even if I did, it was nearly impossible to remember what the setting was. However, as useless as it was (and I'm going to admit there were a LOT of useless settings that to me sounded identical), I believe there's nothing wrong with letting someone experiment with things because first hand experience let's them make up in their own mind on what works and doesn't work.
One of the things we've always promoted here is experimentation and there's no reason to hinder anyone at it, because hey, maybe they stumble on something really awesome and are willing to share. The more feedback we have here the better.
As for the whole Esquire and LP Jr. thing. I think they're great guitars but I don't know if it's for everyone. I honestly don't think I could do them myself. I love my super strats with floyds and the screwed up part is that I barely even use the trem!. I stopped recommending specific guitars to people unless they're asking about it because I know a LOT of folks out there would not like my preferred guitars 'cause seriously... setting up floyds can be a pain in the ass but I like 'em for some unexplained reason.
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Fully agree to Budd - experimentation led me to find the results I want.
Cheers Stephan
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I live this “the reality of this younger generation is we don’t play this blues scale anything because we have evolved”. From people that probably weren’t there and are either regurgitating something they heard or are just making up an erroneous statement.
I know I am reading like I’m trolling, but I am not. I just love the whole idea that they are somehow doing something new that nobody else is or has. So here’s my potshot: Before you take a stab at someone because of their tag on a forum, try and make sure that a) they aren’t trying to give you advice from having been there and done that and b) that your statement or little off the cuff remark has some basis in fact.
If your generation has evolved playing so much, then please by all means show me these new “evolved” and “exotic” scales and modes that have been unlocked so the rest of us old guys can quit playing pentatonic.😂
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I live this “the reality of this younger generation is we don’t play this blues scale anything because we have evolved”. From people that probably weren’t there and are either regurgitating something they heard or are just making up an erroneous statement.
I know I am reading like I’m trolling, but I am not. I just love the whole idea that they are somehow doing something new that nobody else is or has. So here’s my potshot: Before you take a stab at someone because of their tag on a forum, try and make sure that a) they aren’t trying to give you advice from having been there and done that and b) that your statement or little off the cuff remark has some basis in fact.
If your generation has evolved playing so much, then please by all means show me these new “evolved” and “exotic” scales and modes that have been unlocked so the rest of us old guys can quit playing pentatonic.😂
https://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Cook-Book-scales-chords/dp/2953112243 (https://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Cook-Book-scales-chords/dp/2953112243)
This and the new Periphery album, Hail Stan ;D
It's not like this stuff hasn't been done before, because there's only a finite number of ways to work in 12-tone based Western theory, but a lot of the modern guys (from prog like Periphery to math rock like Covet to bluesy guys like Nick Johnston) are incorporating elements from other genres and regions that guitar-focused music has avoided for a really long time.
It's not like it's some higher plane bullshit like a lot of these guys seem to think it is because their heads are too far up their butts, it's just a different palette: Les Pauls into cranked Marshalls playing pentatonic-based blues-rock can be a killer combination if the music is good, in the same way that some fancy headless fan-fret 42-fret 13-string in Drop Q through a massive pedalboard into a 6-channel 300-watt head (with obligatory AxeFX in the loop of course) can be. It just depends on the music.
Different tools for different situations. You wouldn't use a 3-way CNC to put a knob in a door, but you also wouldn't use a drill to make a heat sink.
Tosin Abasi couldn't play AaL on an Stimer-equipped Selmer through a PA, the same way Django Reinhardt couldn't do his thing through Tosin's rig.
. . . actually on second though Django would probably kill it on an 8-string, freakin' madman
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I would be happy with the returns of classic rock. It can’t get any better than that. The Beatles took music from other genres and some of those songs were popular.
For the wiring scheme, you best bet is to get a looper/ backing tracks and play rhythm and solos through the tracks. For me, you only use positions which makes your instrument cut through the mix.
Here is a 2019 PRS which has over 30 pickup combinations. There was no mention of a phase/out of phase switching which would add several more sounds. https://youtu.be/34vpqE4wBOE
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I too like what Tosin is doing. Periphery isn’t my cup o tea. They just act like they’re trying too hard. I know it’s part of their whole persona, the whole self aware overboard thing, but they just unnerve me. To each their own.
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I would be happy with the returns of classic rock. It can’t get any better than that. The Beatles took music from other genres and some of those songs were popular.
For the wiring scheme, you best bet is to get a looper/ backing tracks and play rhythm and solos through the tracks. For me, you only use positions which makes your instrument cut through the mix.
Here is a 2019 PRS which has over 30 pickup combinations. There was no mention of a phase/out of phase switching which would add several more sounds. https://youtu.be/34vpqE4wBOE
So did Roy Clark (yes Hee Haw’s Roy Clark), Glenn Campbell, Eric Johnson. We all do. And much like you, even though I ‘m a metal/instrumental rock guy, the return of classic rock wouldn’t hurt my feelings in the least. I have ALWAYS liked the Beatles. When I was a kid my mom would spin Revolver over and over. Such a great record.
Back on subject, my favorite switching is my Big Apple Strat. Two buckets 5 way super, and I get bridge full in, split, the inner coils of bridge and neck, neck split, neck full on. It is my “one guitar for any gig” axe. Yes it does require using a compressor to compensate for volume drops on the splits, BUT, set right, you don’t really hear the compressor until it’s off.
Going parallel, and having all the in and out of phase, is like a few posted kind of redundant.
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I live this “the reality of this younger generation is we don’t play this blues scale anything because we have evolved”. From people that probably weren’t there and are either regurgitating something they heard or are just making up an erroneous statement.
I know I am reading like I’m trolling, but I am not. I just love the whole idea that they are somehow doing something new that nobody else is or has.
If your generation has evolved playing so much, then please by all means show me these new “evolved” and “exotic” scales and modes that have been unlocked so the rest of us old guys can quit playing pentatonic.😂
I understand ;) The same was said about The Beatles, Hendrix, Page, Blackmore, Frehley, Van Halen, Malmsteen, Satriani, Vai the list is TOO long to name them all. Every era of 'music evolution/guitar evolution' there would be oldies complaining about the newcomers and the younger generation listening to them. I remmember growing up with Vai being one of the relevant guitar gods in the 90s, Vai then became to be a old god today and to be put in the list of old guitar heroes. My generation who listened to him and the others in the 90s are the younger generation evolvin guitar playing and making new music today, its an ongoin cycle. My father grew up with 70s and 80s music, he ended listening to anything new after Vai and Satch and a few others made their thing on guitar in the 90s. 7-8 string virtuosos of today is out of question and garbage to him, with the exception of Petrucci which is still somewhat relevant today but in my opinion soon to be put in the old guitar heroes list aswell.
some fancy headless fan-fret 42-fret 13-string in Drop Q through a massive pedalboard into a 6-channel 300-watt head (with obligatory AxeFX in the loop of course)
I'd love to try that! ;D
I remmember my father telling me how stupid the Ibanez Universe was for having a 7th string, look at what it has done to music 25 years later. Floyd Rose, active pickups, don't even start talking about amp sims or else he will have a heart attack, not tube amp ? only Roland JC120 ;D
There is nothing more satisfying than waiting 15 minutes for those trusty good old tubes which can't be replaced because the amp wont sound the same right ? ;D
And of coarse lets not forget about how dead and sterile sounding digital effects of today is compared to the warmth and trueness of the analog gear of the past ::)
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For those who are interested to hear whats going on today, heres a few links:
Animals as Leaders
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt-RoSzsEKA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt-RoSzsEKA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVSQnsuTs-g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVSQnsuTs-g)
Polyphia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_gkpYORQLU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_gkpYORQLU)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHcAi2FPrTM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHcAi2FPrTM)
Periphery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mZXwSME7rU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mZXwSME7rU)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3WQvLKgCd0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3WQvLKgCd0)
I ended up with a normal 5 switch pos config, full humcanceling on the HSH guitar. I'll just use my HH config, 5 switch pos guitar when I need it and lay off the dream to combine these two switching options into 1 guitar. Thanks again for all the answers! :) My intention here is not to step on anyones balls and make enemies, fellow guitar players :)
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No worries....we’re all in this together. It seems you’re still compromising.
There are wiring diagrams on the DiMarzio site
https://www.dimarzio.com/support/wiring-diagrams
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It's just a passing of the guard/torch if you will. At some point though, melody has to stick it's head in the mix. I LOVE the tones, and appreciate the musicianship. I even like heavy riffing, although my post doesn't seem like it. It just doesn't speak to me in the way it does others. The tones are to die for though. I love that fat mid heavy slab 'o' distortion. I am sure a lot of people said the same thing about my guitar heroes, so all is well. If you like it, fly that banner proudly. Play it with pride, and make people feel what you are.
Just because it isn't EXACTLY my cup of tea doesn't make it suck, or make it less legit. Much like 90s music it will probably grow on me.