DiMarzio Forum
DimarzioForum.Com => The Pickup Place => Topic started by: mysteryloaf on October 02, 2019, 02:02:47 PM
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I have a difficult decision to make regarding my Chapman ML-1 (HSS). I want to trick it out into a metal shred machine. I am caught between loving the sound of the Fishman Fluence Modern in the bridge, but also loving the sound of the Chopper and Tone Zone S in the middle and neck positions respectively.
I love the clean tones I got from the Fluence Modern Bridge when I played my bandmate's guitar. Obviously it also sounded incredible under high gain. But Fishman only offers "strat-voiced" single spaced pickups at this moment. I wanted to go beefy, so I'm very limited there if I go with the Fluence line.
I don't want to route my guitar for HSH, probably. I also can't mix Fluence with DiMarzio in this case: Fluence pickups all use a preamp and won't accept passive pickups into the circuit, and wiring around it would be a pain. So it seems like I must go with all passive or all active.
I originally planned on going with DiMarzios all the way but I couldn't decide what bridge pickup I wanted to use. I may wind up going that route in the end, so I'm soliciting some suggestions/reality checks from you.
The guitar currently has a Steve's Special, and I'm just not digging it. It's mid-scooped, which is cool, but not where I want to go with this anymore.
I'm looking to keep some of that aggressive mid-range (a bit of "Aw") and massive gain from the Fluence Modern, along with that top-end clarity and harmonics. Like an EMG 81 but more "open" on top.
I started by looking at the X2N, but found it was a bit too "twangy" and flat across the frequency spectrum, so I might want something with more midrange.
Been looking at Dominion Bridge, Super 2, and D-Activator X as well.
If you have any other pickups you think I should explore, even from other brands, please drop me a line.
TL;DR: Anyone have an opinion about which high-output bridge pickup (not the X2N) might blend well with the Chopper and Tone Zone S, and ape some of the tone of a Fishman Fluence Modern bridge?
Thanks for reading!
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The D-activator and D-activator X will be the closest things in the catalog to voice 1 of the Fluence moderns, and either something like the Tone Zone or Dominion would be closest to voice 2.
If you want EMG 81-like, the D-activators (standard is very bright and lean on the bass, X is more 85-ish with good low-mids to high-mids push) will probably be your best bet.
If you want to try something with the SS before you ditch it, try either a TS-type OD with a lot of mids or an OD with a mid control to push your amp - you get some really cool sounds with a scoopy pickup and a middy OD.
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Thanks for the response, I'll definitely look into those pickups. They do sound like they'd be more in the ball park. X is sounding pretty great to my ear so far.
Also thanks for the OD tip. I will go out of my way to try the mid-bump ODs into a dirty amp, that sounds like a cool trick. I still think the Steve's Special was not the right choice for how I'll use this guitar or how I play, but I'll make sure to experiment a little more before I move on.
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D-Activator neck in the bridge.
Interesting!
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Yeah if you want something lower output using a neck pickup in the bridge is a pretty good pick (and if you're a fan of the EMG 60 using that same pickup in the neck wired in parallel works pretty well).
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That's a good question and challenge to compare. DiMarzio Evo 2 & Evolution neck combo against any Fluence pickup. That's my vote.
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That's a good question and challenge to compare. DiMarzio Evo 2 & Evolution neck combo against any Fluence pickup. That's my vote.
The Evo 2 is definitely up my alley, but I think I'm going to try the Fluence line and see how I like it. I'm really into their whole Multiple Voicing concept, and their customer support has been really awesome to me so far.
Perhaps I'll wind up back here with the DiMarzios later on... I supposed we'll see! I'll try to keep you folks updated. I figure it's gonna be a couple months before I pull the trigger on these.
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Uh oh, folks, I just discovered Railhammer's Alnico Grande and the bridge pickup might be a game-changer for me. Learned that Dan Mongrain of Voivod/Martyr/etc plays those and I REALLY like his tone. Tight and clear, but with bite and spank. I figured he was using active pickups and some special kind of amp, but no: Alnico Grande into a Dual Rec (Mark V for solos).
I might end up scrapping my Fluence plans and going with the Alnico Grande plus the Chopper and Tone Zone S after all.
Why are these decisions so difficult to make? :P
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Dig deeper in to the Fishman single space pickups. The ones that come with the HSS set are supposed to be hotter/beefier than the regular SSS Strat style options.
Don’t know if they come separately or only as a set. Best thing to do is to call Fishman and discuss it with them.
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Dig deeper in to the Fishman single space pickups. The ones that come with the HSS set are supposed to be hotter/beefier than the regular SSS Strat style options.
Thanks, DarthPhineas. So, for a long while now I have wanted to have the beefy sound of a Tone Zone in the neck of my mahogany strat. I just couldn't decide on the bridge pickup. The Tone Zone is voiced in a way that one could achieve rounder, jazzier tones from a clean amp.
So that's driving my concept for the most part. I'm still not totally convinced about giving that up... but that Modern Bridge sounds unbelievably good.
I spent quite a bit of time via email with the customer support trying to suss things out for an HSS setup. They had lots of great answers, but they never said whether or not the pickups were voiced differently from their strat set or not. I also never asked them. Maybe I'll ping them to confirm this.
I know they have a "3dB Boost" option to better match output with hotter humbuckers, and their resonant peaks are ever so slightly different from the strat set. I wish they had some way to understand how hot their pickups are, like how DiMarzio lists the output milivolts, and Railhammer provides a "1 out of 10" scale.
Don’t know if they come separately or only as a set.
You can buy them one at a time. I've also seen loaded pickguards for strats with an HSS setup. Fishman's site is not all that clear about these things.
Here's some more info you won't find on their website:
- All (actually most) Fluence pickups have a preamp embedded within the pickup itself.
- The preamp can power 2 coils (ex: one per humbucker).
- The Single Space Active (SSA) pickup similarly can power 2 coils, but it only has 1 coil.
- They offer a Single Space Passive (SSP) pickups that can be powered by the SSA and is priced at 80 bucks rather than 110.
- You can totally use two SSAs in an HSS configuration if you want, but there's no need to pay an extra 30 bucks. You can use the SSP and run it off the SSA to save yourself some money.
There is nowhere on their website where this is clearly spelled out, but this is what I learned from their customer support.
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I know they have a "3dB Boost" option to better match output with hotter humbuckers, and their resonant peaks are ever so slightly different from the strat set. I wish they had some way to understand how hot their pickups are, like how DiMarzio lists the output milivolts, and Railhammer provides a "1 out of 10" scale.
Resonant peak is tricky, as not all sites list it. Duncan used to, and you can still find many of theirs is you search for the old “tone chart” that’s hidden on the page from before the site renovation.
But when it comes to output, it will be apples and oranges from one brand to another. DiMarzio has mV and Duncan listed some mV years ago... but the methods are admitted different and a 350 mV DiMarzio and a 350 mV Duncan are far from the same.
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I don’t like batteries or pre-amps. A boost pedal works too and much cheaper.
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Dig deeper in to the Fishman single space pickups. The ones that come with the HSS set are supposed to be hotter/beefier than the regular SSS Strat style options.
So I got a response from Fishman confirming that "the SSA/SSP pickups are voiced differently because they are designed to be used with an onboard humbucker. So there is a shift in the resonant frequencies to allow them to sound better with the humbucker pickups."
They didn't elaborate on how differently they are voiced. I asked for more details since I can't find any sound clips of these pickups anywhere on the internet right now. I also asked for a confirmation that they have the same two-voice setup: a Classic Strat voice, and a Hot Texas Strat voice. I have seen on another forum someone claiming they could not wire the pickups for that second voice https://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?330877-Fishman-Fluence-HSS-config-with-SSA-SSP-and-Open-Core-humbucker (https://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?330877-Fishman-Fluence-HSS-config-with-SSA-SSP-and-Open-Core-humbucker). (Hope it's kosher to cross-post to another forum thread.)
I wish Fishman put a little more effort into marketing these particular pickups. There are no official sound clips to reference, and their marketing is muddled at certain points: The literature says they are "multi voice" like the SSS set, but there is no verbal description of what Voice 1 and Voice 2 sound like, so I feel like I am left making a bunch of assumptions.
They also also say they are voiced differently to match a humbucker bridge. But it's not immediately clear what that means in practice.
I am not really into the idea of paying a substantial premium for pickups when I don't understand their feature set, or don't get to hear how they sound beforehand. If I wasn't so infatuated with the sound of the Modern Bridge, I would have given up by now and gone with a different manufacturer for my HSS guitar.
I still may spring for a loaded pickguard SSS set for my proper strat, though. At least the sound of those pickups are well-documented.
I don’t like batteries or pre-amps. A boost pedal works too and much cheaper.
Preamps aren't important to me other than the benefit of being able to turn down the volume and preserving the tone. Boost pedals can't accomplish that. Otherwise I'm agnostic on active vs passive.
But what IS important to me is the tone of the Fluence Modern Bridge I played, and I'm willing to jump through a hoop or two to get that tone... if I can figure out what the heck I want to do about these single spaced pickup slots. Thanks for your input.
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If Fluence is your thing then buy them. There are plenty of mods to get the potentiometer to have a smooth taper in volume and tone.
Passive pickups are subtractive in nature. Active Pickups can add to tonality due to the active circuitry. Personally, I don’t like a bunch of electronics and battery operated pickups.
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They also also say they are voiced differently to match a humbucker bridge. But it's not immediately clear what that means in practice.
Got a response from customer support:
"The SSA/SSP pickups do not have the same voicing as the 3 Strat pickup set. There is a resonant shift with these pickups to make them more compatible with the humbuckers. They are designed to have a traditional vintage voice. There are not multiple voicing changes for the SSA/SSP."
So, the marketing for the SSA/P pickups is wrong when it claims "All Fishman Fluence Pickups: Are Multi-Voice. Set and forget, or wire-up to toggle between two musically complimentary voices."
The SSA/P don't have multiple voices, which is pretty disappointing since the marketing led me to believe otherwise. The multiple voicings is a major advantage of this line of pickups in my view, and justifies the higher price. If the pickups don't offer multiple voices, I'm not sold on the price point. These SSA/P pickups are a compromise for me anyway, since I had intended to go with big humbucker-sounding pickups for the single spaced slots.
I'm going to look into how in the world I could run both a Fluence Modern Bridge along with passive pickups. But I may wind up opting for a passive bridge instead for the HSS build, and use the Fluence line in a different guitar altogether.
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You could use some kind of active preamp with your passive pickups to bring them up to level and impedance - I think Bartolini has one, so that might work for you.
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You could use some kind of active preamp with your passive pickups to bring them up to level and impedance
That's really not a bad option, actually.
But I think, since my guitar has a 3-way Gibson style switch, it would be trivial to wire it so the bridge middle/neck pups don't interact with the bridge, and that way I could skip the additional preamp for this guitar.
That, or I'll spring for one of the DiMarzio (or perhaps the Railhammer) passive bridge pickups and see how that works for me.
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If you have a 3-way toggle you could run a Duncan Blackouts preamp - it's its own pot, so you'd need 2 volumes or some way to attach it in your control cavity while it's rolled all the way up before running it to the switch.
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If you have a 3-way toggle you could run a Duncan Blackouts preamp
Considering that the Fluence has its own preamp baked into the pickup itself, I'd still have to wire up the passives to the Blackout pre and have the fluence bypass it, or i'd be in double-preamp land which sounds like a bad time. Right? Maybe I'm wrong tho.
I'd rather save 70 bucks and just wire the passives as regular passives tbh.
I wish I had an HH guitar, then I'd just go Fluence all the way. But I have what I have.
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If you have a 3-way toggle you could run a Duncan Blackouts preamp
Considering that the Fluence has its own preamp baked into the pickup itself, I'd still have to wire up the passives to the Blackout pre and have the fluence bypass it, or i'd be in double-preamp land which sounds like a bad time. Right? Maybe I'm wrong tho.
I'd rather save 70 bucks and just wire the passives as regular passives tbh.
I wish I had an HH guitar, then I'd just go Fluence all the way. But I have what I have.
Passive into Blackouts pre, blackouts pre and Fluence into switch.
Yeah it's kind of a pain and more expensive than going for either/or but a preamp is really the only way to make them play nice together.
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Passive into Blackouts pre, blackouts pre and Fluence into switch.
Yeah, honestly I'd love to think I could get the two pickup families to work together properly rather than cordon them off from each other. I'd love to hear what the Fluence Modern bridge with Tone Zone S sound like together.
But what happens when two pre-amped signals meet each other at the switch? You're talking about wiring two preamps in parallel? Can you even do that without a mixer?
I think I'd have to run the Fluence into the Blackout Pre. Run them in series.
I feel like this is where it gets dicey, and it's what made me want to look into passive high-output bridge pickups in the first place. Ultimately I feel like that would be the path of least resistance.
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Passive into Blackouts pre, blackouts pre and Fluence into switch.
Yeah, honestly I'd love to think I could get the two pickup families to work together properly rather than cordon them off from each other. I'd love to hear what the Fluence Modern bridge with Tone Zone S sound like together.
But what happens when two pre-amped signals meet each other at the switch? You're talking about wiring two preamps in parallel? Can you even do that without a mixer?
I think I'd have to run the Fluence into the Blackout Pre. Run them in series.
I feel like this is where it gets dicey, and it's what made me want to look into passive high-output bridge pickups in the first place. Ultimately I feel like that would be the path of least resistance.
The two preamps running in parallel don't affect each other - the Blackouts pre takes high-impedance passive pickup signals and converts them to low-impedance active signals (it does some other stuff too but for your purposes that's the part that matters). The mixer in this case is the switch - either pickup at 100%, or both in parallel (at a percentage corresponding to the output of each pickup). Wiring them in series would be problematic - in parallel they don't really interact.
Dicey, yes. It's an unconventional setup that most people don't go through the trouble of dealing with, which is why there's no plug-and-play or specialized hardware to make it easy, but it's not impossible or finicky by any standard - there's some hoops to jump through, but as long as you understand the problems you'll have, it's easy to work with.
The Bartolini Adjustable Gain Buffer https://bartolini.net/product/agb/ (https://bartolini.net/product/agb/) is probably the easiest - it'll convert your signal to low-impedance and let you balance the output with an active pickup. It's also meant to be put inside the instrument, not as one of the controls.
The Blackouts Preamp is meant to take a full set of passive pickups and convert them to active pickups - it does some stuff tonally, bumps up the output, adds compression, and has a specific wiring scheme to increase noise cancellation with humbuckers. It can be wired to do it, and I think might tonally make the pickups mesh a little better, but it's more of a hassle with mounting and stuff.
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The mixer in this case is the switch - either pickup at 100%, or both in parallel ... The Bartolini Adjustable Gain Buffer is probably the easiest... The Blackouts Preamp might tonally make the pickups mesh a little better.
Well I'll definitely keep this trick up my sleeve and float it by the guitar tech who will do the work of wiring it together. Thanks for explaining it.
I'll admit I'm not enthusastic about this kind of setup. I still think it sounds like an unnecessarily expensive and trouble-prone venture and it's not clear to me if it would be worth the hassle.
Sounds interesting tho.
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I bought a used set that came with the Fluence set with the backplate, push/pull fat thing, etc.
My take is that they sound ok. Not better than that. Not as good as Areas. The big thing I didn't like though is that you can hear the white noise from the preamp even under very moderate overdrive/volume situations. That's a deal breaker for me on them. They don't hum like a single, but they hiss like and old tape deck.
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Fluence pickups and DiMarzio’s are completely different builds. Passive pickups, good bad or indifferent age over time which creates a vintage vibe. I’m not sure if the Fluence pickups will age well, if at all. Only time will tell about their durability. Personally, I think that would be a great You Tube video.... durability of pickup types in various climates and conditions.
In addition, resale value is also a consideration. In most cases, a vintage DiMarzio pickup definitely holds or exceeds its original price.
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The big thing I didn't like [about the Fluence] though is that you can hear the white noise from the preamp even under very moderate overdrive/volume situations. That's a deal breaker for me on them. They don't hum like a single, but they hiss like and old tape deck.
Wow, that's... exactly what I was hoping to avoid. All the reviews I've seen/read so far claim they are dead quiet. I wonder if that's endemic to the whole line, just the singles, or if its unique to you...? Anyway thanks for the heads up.
I’m not sure if the Fluence pickups will age well, if at all. Only time will tell about their durability.
In addition, resale value is also a consideration.
Well, durability is a very legit concern for me. But aging? The Fluence's difference is chiefly in how the coil is constructed (it's a PCB rather than wire wraps). But they're still, at the end of the day, "wire coils surrounding a magnetic core." And if I understand correctly, it's the magnets that age, not so much the coils? So they ought to age the way normal magnets age because that component isn't fundamentally different.
But resale is deffo a consideration for me. If I buy a set of Fluences and don't like them, I imagine it would be harder to resell due to generally lower demand. DiMarzios are a tried and true brand that many ppl trust. Fluence are new and shiny... but only have a cult following at this moment.
The Blackouts Preamp is meant to take a full set of passive pickups and convert them to active pickups - it does some stuff tonally, bumps up the output, adds compression, and has a specific wiring scheme to increase noise cancellation with humbuckers. It can be wired to do it, and I think might tonally make the pickups mesh a little better...
What I'm thinking now is: I'm going to try a passive pickup build w DiMarzios in the middle and neck positions, and try out a Railhammer in the bridge, and maybe spring for a preamp if I can get one that will work with 3 pickups... and if I can toggle it on and off.
I like the idea of the Blackouts Preamp since it adds a more aggressive tone etc. But it seems like a bypass toggle is difficult to set up, and also I'm not sure it'll be able to handle 3 humbuckers.
The more I work through what I want and understand the options out there, the more I feel like Goldilocks, wanting the porridge that's juuuust right. lol
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Snake Oil marketing is real. Don’t feed into it. Save your money and integrity and move on from the Fluence.
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Snake Oil marketing is real. Don’t feed into it. Save your money and integrity and move on from the Fluence.
I realize you're trying to help me, but that seems needlessly harsh to imply anything about my integrity, or that Fishman is marketing an inferior product. I couldn't say either way since I've never owned them for a long period of time. That's partly why I asked for opinions, tho I do prefer opinions backed by experience, and not conjecture. No offense.
All I know about Fishman is I briefly a played Fluence Modern Bridge, and it the sound really impressed me at the time, enough to start asking questions around here. And that's what matters to me: the Fluence line has an appealing sound to my ear, as well as some other advantages, and some disadvantages.
In this case, I think the cons may outweigh the pros for the current project. Because of their limited selection for the pickup routes/form factor I have to work with on this guitar, going with a Fluence Modern Bridge would mean an imperfect solution: 1) I'd be compromising my vision for this guitar by buying the Fluence Singles and ending up with sounds I don't actually want. Or, 2) the solution to using 1 active pickup and 2 other passive pickups seems expensive, convoluted, and unwieldy.
As I sort my options out (with your and everyone else's help) I've tried to share my thoughts and findings here in case it helps anyone.
On that note, thanks again for your input so far.
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"or if its unique to you...?"
It's not.
They are quiet in terms of induced hum; but any active circuitry will add noise. I found the noise added here unacceptable when added to the fact that Areas are also quiet, IMO sound better, and do not hiss.
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"or if its unique to you...?"
It's not.
They are quiet in terms of induced hum; but any active circuitry will add noise. I found the noise added here unacceptable when added to the fact that Areas are also quiet, IMO sound better, and do not hiss.
Understood, thanks for clarifying. Preamps do indeed add self-noise... but I'm honestly surprised at your report of such intense self-noise under moderate gain from the Fishmans. So far you are the first person I have seen bring that up, and I haven't noticed hiss in the audio examples available online. Maybe the self-noise wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me, hypothetically speaking. But I'll keep an ear out for that going forward.
As for the areas: I have some Areas in my PJ Bass and I love the way they sound. I can imagine that the strat pickups are on a similar level of awesome.
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I don’t like batteries or pre-amps. A boost pedal works too and much cheaper.
Agreed. That is why my Fulldrive 2 stays on my board. Even on a solid state amp.
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Well, folks, I did something drastic to free myself up from the conundrum.
I bought a Charvel San Dimas with an HH route. Found it on Reverb, listed by the folks at Railhammer and comes both pre-loaded with the bridge pickup I was interested (Alnico Grande) plus a Hyper Vintage neck. They also ship with the original Duncans that Charvel loads them with.
No more fiddling, no more compromises. The Charvel arrives on Monday.
If I don't like the Railhammers (I kind of doubt I'll dislike them), I now have the options of swapping them out for a set of Fluence humbuckers.
This now frees me up to go back to my original plan of 100% DiMarzios in the Chapman: Since the Railhammers are very hot but still super clear and even a bit twangy in essence, I'm thinking D-Activator X for the bridge, since it's that kind of aggressively mid-focused, active-but-not sound.
Thanks for following along on this weird windy road, and thank you for your suggestions/advice. It's been a big help.
If there's interest, I'd be more than happy to report on my experience with the Railhammers after I put them through their paces.
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Sounds like a plan. So you are aware, if not already, Railhammer is an American company based in Ohio, and the pickups are designed in the USA. Our pickups are made by a South Korean winder to proprietary specs, who we selected for their ability to build consistent, high-quality, custom-designed pickups.
If you want rail style pickups, then Bill Lawrence Wilde USA 500XL’s are the ticket.
Personally, for the price and quality, you cannot beat USA DiMarzio’s.
YMMV
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Sounds like a plan. So you are aware, if not already, Railhammer is an American company based in Ohio, and the pickups are designed in the USA. Our pickups are made by a South Korean winder to proprietary specs, who we selected for their ability to build consistent, high-quality, custom-designed pickups.
If you want rail style pickups, then Bill Lawrence Wilde USA 500XL’s are the ticket.
Personally, for the price and quality, you cannot beat USA DiMarzio’s.
YMMV
Big thanks for the suggestsions, BluesJam. I've heard great things about the Lawrence pickups. In fact, way back when I was looking for single spaced rail-style humbuckers for a different guitar, Bill Lawrence definitely came up as a possibility. So I'll take another look into the Wilde 500XL now and see what I think.
But as you said, DiMarzios make for very stiff competition in this realm of muscly humbuckers, and back then I ended up with a pair of Choppers which still live happily in my tele style guitar.
We'll eventually see what happens this time around in the Chapman.
Cheers
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Wait wait wait, is this one of the HSS Chapmans with the three-way toggle? If so, you could get a couple of medium-hot singles for the middle and neck and just run them in series like a humbucker. Maybe something like the FS1 or SDS-1?
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You should try the cruiser.
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Wait wait wait, is this one of the HSS Chapmans with the three-way toggle? If so, you could get a couple of medium-hot singles for the middle and neck and just run them in series like a humbucker. Maybe something like the FS1 or SDS-1?
Yeah, it's exactly that, the HSS with the 3 way. ML-1 with the natural Brazilian mahogany (sapele) body.
Honestly, I don't want to run two low/mid output pickups together to make one humbucker because that feels like another compromise. I'm in a mood to get around my limitations.
In fact I'm looking at replacing the 3-way switch with one of those nifty 6-way switches, and wiring it to have each of the 3 pickups solo, as well as the "in-between sounds," and using the two middle-most positions for the Middle solo and Bridge/Neck together.
There's also a push-pull switch installed, so maybe I'll try either a coil split or a series/parallel mode? I suppose we'll see.
You should try the cruiser.
Really that's not a bad option esp if I were to go with Harlow's wiring scheme. The Cruiser sounds really badass for a strat-voiced pickup. But I'm gonna go with the Chopper for the middle and Tone Zone S for the neck.
Also BTW I looked into the Bill Lawrence and Bill & Becky l500 XLs. Both of them are way too bright and top-endy for what I'm going for, though they do capture the shred-machine vibe really well. Nuno certainly could make those pickups sing. And they're affordable af. But I don't think they're for me.
Once again I value your suggestions, folks. Even if I don't go with them, there are a lot of options out there and it can become difficult to wade through it all. You've all been really helpful in feeding me info and ideas. Much appreciated!