DiMarzio Forum

DimarzioForum.Com => The Pickup Place => Topic started by: Jerryman on February 07, 2010, 04:09:49 PM

Title: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: Jerryman on February 07, 2010, 04:09:49 PM
As far as I know, these pickups ar very good, but not widely regarded  to be anything extra ordinarilay  special ?
Pity it is, because the 70's models  by now may be aged to perfection, just like real vintage Gibson PAF's.
I do know the Old Dimarzios seem to finally be going for a premium, including the older Super D's and PAF's.
I do happen to have a set socked away of the earliest Super D and an early Dimarzio PAF aiting for the right guitar one day, so I'm wondering if anyone mught have any input on this?
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: 5150 on February 07, 2010, 06:43:48 PM
I don't know how much of a premium you would fetch for the older dimarzios. No idea if there's anything special about them. I mean I'd assume that a Super Distortion from the 70's would sound the same as a Super Distortion that was just freshly wound by dimarzio.
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: Jerryman on February 07, 2010, 06:59:33 PM
I don't know how much of a premium you would fetch for the older dimarzios. No idea if there's anything special about them. I mean I'd assume that a Super Distortion from the 70's would sound the same as a Super Distortion that was just freshly wound by dimarzio.

Well, it wouldnt sound the same, that much I'm sure of. Every pickup undergoes changes with aging, and mostly for the better in regard to vintage PAF's..
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: zenmindbeginner on February 09, 2010, 10:08:17 AM
They are gonna be very collectible in the future. I have been trying to buy as many as I can get my hands on... I've got around 9 or 10 of them. The zebras seem almost impossible to find. Naval Jelly gets rid of the pole rust (applied by toothpick and removed with a Q-tip) and I use Dr. Duck's Axe Wax to condition the plastic and provide a barrier to future moisture. They are absolutely amazing pickups and have the mojo that everyone is looking for. The OP has the right idea.  ;D
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: Matt_B on February 09, 2010, 07:21:54 PM
I don't know how much of a premium you would fetch for the older dimarzios. No idea if there's anything special about them. I mean I'd assume that a Super Distortion from the 70's would sound the same as a Super Distortion that was just freshly wound by dimarzio.
Well, it wouldnt sound the same, that much I'm sure of. Every pickup undergoes changes with aging, and mostly for the better in regard to vintage PAF's..
Pickups made in the 70s were made with more consistent materials so they don't age nearly as quickly as those made during the 50s. Look it up for yourself. Magnets don't mellow anywhere near as quick as they did back in the beginning. We're talking about the magnet losing around 2-3% of its magnetism over a a few (2-3) decades. If you think you can hear a difference and are willing to pay more than so be it but I will let science dictate my purchases and not false mojo. ;)
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: Jerryman on February 09, 2010, 07:34:56 PM
Good thread people. In the democratic spirirt, it is not so much as who is right or wrong, as the free exchange of ideas that is important. By the way...you are wrong!!  ;D
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: Matt_B on February 10, 2010, 07:30:11 AM
Like I said, believe what you want. I'd be happy to sell anyone some "vintage" Dimarzios that have been "aged to perfection". I am a firm believer in the philosophies of a Mr. P.T. Barnum. ;)

Magnetism FAQ (http://www.magnetsales.com/Design/FAQs_frames/FAQs_2.htm)

Will magnets lose their power over time?
Modern magnet materials do lose a very small fraction of their magnetism over time. For Samarium Cobalt materials, for example, this has been shown to be less that 1% over a period of ten years.
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: zenmindbeginner on February 10, 2010, 12:24:41 PM
As far as the magnets losing power over time, that is not what gives a vintage PAF it's mojo. Clapton, Page and Beck used actual Gibson PAFs in the 1960s and their sound is the definitive vintage PAF tone. There is no chance that their alnico magnets weakened in a space of months or a few years... nope, weakened magnets didn't contribute to the sound of the PAF. So are the DP103 pickups that they make today identical to the PAFs that Dimarzio made in the 70's and the early 80's? I doubt it. Guitar World's review of the 36th Anniversary PAF® was lackluster and the pickup came off sounding rather bland and unexciting. Larry redesigned the PAF recently, here's the quote from Dimarzio's website: The PAF® 36th Anniversary model has the best qualities of the Virtual PAF® and Virtual Hot PAF® pickups and then some. It’s as loud as the VHPAF™, but has as much low-end and midrange definition as the VPAF™ model. The highs are actually bigger and smoother than either model.

By Dimarzio's own definition, the current PAF bears little resemblance to their original design. There were deliberate changes made to the materials and production, there is really no way that they can sound the same and they don't, IMHO. Nobody tinkers with their pickup designs like Larry Dimarzio. He is a constant innovator and experimenter. I like Larry's original pickups much like I like "Van Halen I" as opposed to "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge". The latter my be a better record using high tech recording techniques and the latest trial and error methods of producing superior sounding albums... as well as having Eddie's years of wisdom behind him and the 30+ years of accumulated knowledge to avoid pitfalls and errors. Yet, "Van Halen I" is a superior record because it has mojo.

I have new Dimarzios and older Dimarzios... they all sound crazy different. The newer Dimarzios are truly amazing accomplishments and are extremely innovative. They have a HUGE sound compared to the vintage versions and have very little noise, they are in all respects better pickups. They just lack the sweet harmonics and slightly complex treble of the vintage versions. They also lack the almost acoustic like response of the original PAFs and that almost crystalline like high end that we associate with the vintage tone.

It might all be a placebo effect though... one's ears can fool one into believing something will sound a certain way due to an expectation of a certain outcome. I would swear that they sound different, but I could be wrong and they really don't, I've never been able to do a double blind test.

The vintage PAFs sell for a bit less than a brand new PAF® 36th Anniversary model does... unless they are zebra or have an output higher than 8K, then they don't ever sell for over $150. The only used Dimarzio pickup that consistently sells for over $100 is the Musicman Axis bridge model. Us vintage Dimarzio PAF fans are actually paying less for our pickups and are actually doing the environment a favor by recycling a perfectly good pickup that has already been created.  ;D
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: Matt_B on February 10, 2010, 01:44:19 PM
I will believe that an older Dimarzio sounds different than a new version of the same type of pickup just because it's made differently, not because it's "aged". Any variance in magnetism between old and new magnets could can easily be attributed to a host of other factors besides time passing.

The only way to be absolutely sure of precisely how much magnetism a pickup magnet loses over time is to measure a specific pickups when brand new than remeasure it every X years.
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: yankeerob on July 19, 2018, 10:06:20 PM
I'm a newbie to the forum but was researching PAFs and came across this thread...

In my experience - the original DiMarzio PAFs are quite a bit different to the new ones - they seemed to have more clarity - it's hard to describe but I think it's what people have come to call transparency.

I couldn't tell you why or discuss the materials, aging of magnets and all that jazz... I just know what I've always heard - in the way of a difference. I always just assumed - rightly or wrongly - that it was more likely to do with the volume of sales.

Whatever the reason - I simply just thought I'd offer my two penneth worth... I also had a very early Pre-B Tele bridge pickup that was massively better than a later one... again no idea why... ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: Matt_B on July 23, 2018, 12:44:36 PM
In my experience - the original DiMarzio PAFs are quite a bit different to the new ones - they seemed to have more clarity - it's hard to describe but I think it's what people have come to call transparency.
When we're discussing Dimarzio PAFs we really need to compare apples to apples because Dimarzio has offered a slew of PAF variants over the years (Virtual, Virtual Hot, Air Classic, PAF Master, 36th Anniversary, etc.).
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: DarthPhineas on July 24, 2018, 09:28:31 AM

In my experience - the original DiMarzio PAFs are quite a bit different to the new ones - they seemed to have more clarity - it's hard to describe but I think it's what people have come to call transparency.


I like the Virtual PAF Bridge and the Virtual Hot Bridge. Have not laid hands on a Virtual PAF Neck... yet. I also like the 36th Anniversary Bridge.

Try to keep my eyes open for the old DP103.

The newer PAF Master Set and the PAF 59 Set were both disappointments for my goals.
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: Matt_B on July 24, 2018, 11:31:53 AM

In my experience - the original DiMarzio PAFs are quite a bit different to the new ones - they seemed to have more clarity - it's hard to describe but I think it's what people have come to call transparency.


I like the Virtual PAF Bridge and the Virtual Hot Bridge. Have not laid hands on a Virtual PAF Neck... yet. I also like the 36th Anniversary Bridge.

Try to keep my eyes open for the old DP103.

The newer PAF Master Set and the PAF 59 Set were both disappointments for my goals.
I've been interested in the VHPAF but have chosen to not try one because if I really liked, I'd have to get like 14 more for all my guitars. ;)
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: DarthPhineas on July 25, 2018, 06:00:16 AM

In my experience - the original DiMarzio PAFs are quite a bit different to the new ones - they seemed to have more clarity - it's hard to describe but I think it's what people have come to call transparency.


I like the Virtual PAF Bridge and the Virtual Hot Bridge. Have not laid hands on a Virtual PAF Neck... yet. I also like the 36th Anniversary Bridge.

Try to keep my eyes open for the old DP103.

The newer PAF Master Set and the PAF 59 Set were both disappointments for my goals.
I've been interested in the VHPAF but have chosen to not try one because if I really liked, I'd have to get like 14 more for all my guitars. ;)


Haha. I liked mine so much a pal wanted to borrow it. He liked it so much that he just bought new a new one rather than take it out of his guitar. Of course, that’s when they were still available. I hear that’s about the time that banjomike realized there were some left and bought them out.
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: perrygoround on July 29, 2018, 08:57:43 AM
Hi, I am new in this forum. I have just won an ebay auction for a pair of DiMarzio PAF Classics (DP194 and DP195). As they are not currently on production it is hard to find reviews, oppinions, videos or audio samples of those pickups. For what I have researched they seem to be slightly overwound PAF with alnico V and the air technology to weaken the effect of the magnet. Hopefully I will receive them during next week.
Meanwhile, anyone here has direct experience with those? what can I expect?
I was looking for PAF pickups with a little extra output, to play classic and Hard Rock. Aerosmith, Guns & Roses, Pearl Jam, etc... for the neck I would like being able to get some Gary moore tones.
What do you think, will these pickups fit my needs?
On paper it seems so, but I would like to hear oppions of somebody that had played them.
The will go on a 2018 Gibson Les Paul Tribute which currently is fit with the 490/498 combo.

Finally, last question, since they are 4 conductor, will they split well?
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: DarthPhineas on July 30, 2018, 09:39:22 AM

I was looking for PAF pickups with a little extra output, to play classic and Hard Rock. Aerosmith, Guns & Roses, Pearl Jam, etc... for the neck I would like being able to get some Gary moore tones.

Check out the Duncan Antiquity humbuckers, Greenie humbuckers, and Seth Lover humbuckers.



Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: perrygoround on July 30, 2018, 06:46:50 PM
Hi, thanks a lot for your recommendations.
However, I need to say that a few years ago I tried -on a different guitar- a pair of Seth Lovers that didn't do it for me. Tone was ok, but I found them a bit low in output for my taste -although it could have been the guitar's fault, not the pickups-. I changed them to somebody for a pair of Whole Lotta Humbuckers and those were just awsome.
In fact, what I want is something that can work on this guitar as good as the Whole Lotta Humbuckers are working in the other guitar while being slightly different; so I can have two different flavors. That's why I though I should be going for the DiMarzio route. I thought I could find something in their cataloge that is on the ballpark of the WLH output and tonewise while sounding slightly different because of the different manufacture.
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: DarthPhineas on July 31, 2018, 06:08:26 AM
There’s a knob or two on the front of the amp that handles output.
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: perrygoround on August 01, 2018, 11:49:55 AM
Hi, I do appreciate that you had taken your time to respond to my enquiry, and also I appreciate your deep knowledge on all things pickups. I have come across your blog a few times, so I know how valuable is your expertise in this area.
However, I was not looking for pickup recommendations, but for specific information about this particular set of DiMarzio pickups (DP194 and DP195, PAF classics neck and bridge). As they are not being produced anymore it is difficult to find info, reviews or videos about them.

Now that you are suggesting some vintage sounding Seymour Duncan pickups, I would like to ask you a very specific question. How would you compare this set (DP195-194) with Duncan Pickups? What would be the closest sounding? Maybe the 59s or the A2P?

Again, thanks for taking some of your time is replying to my questions ;)
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: DarthPhineas on August 02, 2018, 10:17:55 PM
Depends on the era you get them from. If you can get a set of the 59 Models made in the 80s or early 90s, I think you’d be happy. The current production models lack the character, in my opinion.

The ones I mentioned were all intended to be suggestions for the tones you are trying to nail.

A possible DiMarzio option is the 36th anniversary set, but I think the 103 in the neck could be a little more lively. Give the Classics a try and see how they work for you.

You can also call DiMarzio tech support and chat with a cat named Eric. Run your scenario past him and he should be able to line you out well. 
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: perrygoround on August 03, 2018, 05:25:13 AM
Hi, and thanks again.
I will install the pickups tomorrow and try them over the weekend. I hope I will be satisfied. If after some time I found I am not 100% happy, I will give a try to some of your suggestions.
All the best!
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: DavidSchwab on August 08, 2018, 12:21:05 PM
I don't know how much of a premium you would fetch for the older dimarzios. No idea if there's anything special about them. I mean I'd assume that a Super Distortion from the 70's would sound the same as a Super Distortion that was just freshly wound by dimarzio.

Well, it wouldnt sound the same, that much I'm sure of. Every pickup undergoes changes with aging, and mostly for the better in regard to vintage PAF's..

I’ve had some very early patent label Gibson humbuckers, so essentially PAFs. They weren’t that special. And I fact they came out of a ‘58 Les Paul that had been converted to humbuckers. The owner replaced them with these original DiMarzio PAFs, which were much better sounding pickups. This was in 1976.

Pickups don’t age. Not in a good way. Old plain enamel wire can develop cracks in the insulation which leads to shorts. People speculate that magnets age, but they really don’t.

And back then Gibson used whatever magnets or screws that were available. As long as the pickup worked it was good enough.

Everything else is in people’s imagination.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Vintage Dimarzio PAF Pickup
Post by: perrygoround on August 08, 2018, 06:39:02 PM
So, last saturday I finally installed the neck pickup (PAF Classic DP194). On the bridge I put some other pickup I had around (Suhr Thornbucker).
Happy with both. At first I though that the DiMarzio, even though an improvement in tone from the original Gibson 490R, was a bit muddy, specially compared with the bridge pickup. Then I realized that I had the neck tone control rolled halfway back. So it is great right now, and apparently both pickups (the DP194 and the Suhr) are a good match too. However, I have only tried at home and moderate volumes by now.
But I feel the improvement from the stock pickups. Now the guitar sounds how I like it to sound.