Need a Dimarzio neck humbucker with bite under gain

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Offline daenius

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Re: Need a Dimarzio neck humbucker with bite under gain
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2017, 06:07:40 AM »
Surprised you didn't like the JB for classic rock in the bridge! I guess there's finally a guitar that doesn't work well with the JB.

If you're running a 250K pot you'll REALLY need a super bright sounding neck pickup. Super 2, PAF 36th Anniversary, and Humbucker From Hell comes to mind along with the Duncan Full Shred. Don't let the names fool you, they do the classic rock tones just fine!

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Offline corypheus

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Re: Need a Dimarzio neck humbucker with bite under gain
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2017, 06:27:43 AM »
Surprised you didn't like the JB for classic rock in the bridge! I guess there's finally a guitar that doesn't work well with the JB.

If you're running a 250K pot you'll REALLY need a super bright sounding neck pickup. Super 2, PAF 36th Anniversary, and Humbucker From Hell comes to mind along with the Duncan Full Shred. Don't let the names fool you, they do the classic rock tones just fine!

There's *alot* of guitars that doesn't gel well with the JB, it's very picky and finnicky, specially in mahogany, agathis and ash bodies... there was a time I had a JB in most of my axes back in the day, and in some it never really worked.
I usually tell people if they want rock machines, and Duncans - and JB doesn't do well, that they check the Custom family, four flavors for everyone's taste, ceramic, A2, A5 and A8. All except CC, also work really well with 250kohm pots, I found it (CC) inarticulate with anything lower then 500k. The added benefit of Custom family is, that they work good in every guitar, be it mahogany or plywood.



As for the OP, I think the issue is the pot loads in your case. If you really must keep 250k for the bridge, there's a resistor mod to make your bridge see lower load. Though, if you've got a tone pot there, and you do, I don't see how swapping to 500k and then just rolling the tone knob for the bridge isn't an issue?

Alternatively, install push/pull pots with both volume and tone in each of the holes for each of the pickup - now you've got more control over your sound, and can tailor the loads for each of the pickup as you wish.

Cory
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 06:30:26 AM by corypheus »

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Offline DarthPhineas

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Re: Need a Dimarzio neck humbucker with bite under gain
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2017, 05:33:09 PM »
From the DiMarzio line up I had success with the Bluesbucker but I would only use it with 500k pots in the neck, otherwise it will be too dark.

Bluesbucker is a great pickup.  excellent suggestion
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Offline daenius

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Re: Need a Dimarzio neck humbucker with bite under gain
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2017, 08:19:43 PM »
Surprised you didn't like the JB for classic rock in the bridge! I guess there's finally a guitar that doesn't work well with the JB.

If you're running a 250K pot you'll REALLY need a super bright sounding neck pickup. Super 2, PAF 36th Anniversary, and Humbucker From Hell comes to mind along with the Duncan Full Shred. Don't let the names fool you, they do the classic rock tones just fine!

There's *alot* of guitars that doesn't gel well with the JB, it's very picky and finnicky, specially in mahogany, agathis and ash bodies... there was a time I had a JB in most of my axes back in the day, and in some it never really worked.
I usually tell people if they want rock machines, and Duncans - and JB doesn't do well, that they check the Custom family, four flavors for everyone's taste, ceramic, A2, A5 and A8. All except CC, also work really well with 250kohm pots, I found it (CC) inarticulate with anything lower then 500k. The added benefit of Custom family is, that they work good in every guitar, be it mahogany or plywood.



As for the OP, I think the issue is the pot loads in your case. If you really must keep 250k for the bridge, there's a resistor mod to make your bridge see lower load. Though, if you've got a tone pot there, and you do, I don't see how swapping to 500k and then just rolling the tone knob for the bridge isn't an issue?

Alternatively, install push/pull pots with both volume and tone in each of the holes for each of the pickup - now you've got more control over your sound, and can tailor the loads for each of the pickup as you wish.

Cory

Interesting! I've had JB in alder (a few DK2Ms) and a mahogany + ash guitar (2x ESP Forest GT, maple neck-thru, mahogany wings, ash top) and both sounded just phenomenal with the JB. Now both of those guitars have Floyds so that probably also changes things a bit. I've also played a JB in a Japanese Les Paul copy and damn that sounded amazing too. But yeah that's 5 instances of the JB for me. Every guitar is different though, even with the same technical specs, so I can see that.

Great to know that you had tried it in so many different axes! This actually helps me decide on a bridge pickup that I'm putting in a new build. Debating between a CC and a JB and... hey maybe I'll try the CC this time haha

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Offline corypheus

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Re: Need a Dimarzio neck humbucker with bite under gain
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2017, 06:24:50 AM »
Surprised you didn't like the JB for classic rock in the bridge! I guess there's finally a guitar that doesn't work well with the JB.

If you're running a 250K pot you'll REALLY need a super bright sounding neck pickup. Super 2, PAF 36th Anniversary, and Humbucker From Hell comes to mind along with the Duncan Full Shred. Don't let the names fool you, they do the classic rock tones just fine!

There's *alot* of guitars that doesn't gel well with the JB, it's very picky and finnicky, specially in mahogany, agathis and ash bodies... there was a time I had a JB in most of my axes back in the day, and in some it never really worked.
I usually tell people if they want rock machines, and Duncans - and JB doesn't do well, that they check the Custom family, four flavors for everyone's taste, ceramic, A2, A5 and A8. All except CC, also work really well with 250kohm pots, I found it (CC) inarticulate with anything lower then 500k. The added benefit of Custom family is, that they work good in every guitar, be it mahogany or plywood.



As for the OP, I think the issue is the pot loads in your case. If you really must keep 250k for the bridge, there's a resistor mod to make your bridge see lower load. Though, if you've got a tone pot there, and you do, I don't see how swapping to 500k and then just rolling the tone knob for the bridge isn't an issue?

Alternatively, install push/pull pots with both volume and tone in each of the holes for each of the pickup - now you've got more control over your sound, and can tailor the loads for each of the pickup as you wish.

Cory

Interesting! I've had JB in alder (a few DK2Ms) and a mahogany + ash guitar (2x ESP Forest GT, maple neck-thru, mahogany wings, ash top) and both sounded just phenomenal with the JB. Now both of those guitars have Floyds so that probably also changes things a bit. I've also played a JB in a Japanese Les Paul copy and damn that sounded amazing too. But yeah that's 5 instances of the JB for me. Every guitar is different though, even with the same technical specs, so I can see that.

Great to know that you had tried it in so many different axes! This actually helps me decide on a bridge pickup that I'm putting in a new build. Debating between a CC and a JB and... hey maybe I'll try the CC this time haha

Funny you mentioned it. I have a JB in an Edwards Les Paul (EC), and it sounds really good there. On the other hand, I tried so many Gibsons with one and it was so nasal and harsh and flabby, no eq'ing in the world would help there. Once upon a moon, I stumble across a good LP with JB that sounds phenomenal (a specific R9, but then that guitar also had non-original bridge), but in most of the cases I don't like it in Pauls.

I do own mostly Gibsons and Ibanez guitars, and only owned two ESPs for a while before selling, one which came with C/59 (horizon) and other with JB/59 (forest gt) but both were floyd rose guitars and both were alder... so I cannot comment how well the JB sounds in other Japanese-made ESPs, as I have limited experience there. I've tested JBs in about some 20-odd guitars through the years... didn't like how it sounded in half of that.

I'll say, however, that JB would never be my first pick in mahogany, agathis or ash guitars. In basswood guitars (Ibanez RGs), it sounds okay, but a little thin on leads on thinner strings. I've found that from Duncan, the best pickup for basswood is Custom, just gels well with basswood natural tendency to dial out some of those more presence-y frequencies. On alder it usually sound excellent and is a safe bet in that case. Floating trems takes out some of the flabbiness from JB which is mostly why it usually sound better in a tremolo guitar then a fixed bridge ones.


I really like the custom family, specifically Custom Custom and Custom models. Custom Custom always sounds smooth and polite, regardless of a guitar. I've got first CC in an cheapo Washburn Idol, which is a thin slab of agathis, the guitar is feather light... the 59 on the neck sounded a little boomy in that guitar, but otherwise okay, but the CC sounded so lovely and musical, regardless of the fact the guitar's wood couldn't be any cheaper and non-acoustic (it was inaudible without amp). I have since tested it on neck as well, with a Custom on the bridge, and I was surprised how good the CC sounds in the neck as well. I don't really think you can go wrong with the CC.

Regards,
Cory

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Offline DarthPhineas

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Re: Need a Dimarzio neck humbucker with bite under gain
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2017, 12:24:22 PM »
Interesting! I've had JB in alder (a few DK2Ms) and a mahogany + ash guitar (2x ESP Forest GT, maple neck-thru, mahogany wings, ash top) and both sounded just phenomenal with the JB. Now both of those guitars have Floyds so that probably also changes things a bit. I've also played a JB in a Japanese Les Paul copy and damn that sounded amazing too. But yeah that's 5 instances of the JB for me. Every guitar is different though, even with the same technical specs, so I can see that.

Great to know that you had tried it in so many different axes! This actually helps me decide on a bridge pickup that I'm putting in a new build. Debating between a CC and a JB and... hey maybe I'll try the CC this time haha


I've also had the JB is a LOT of different guitars - the 7-string Ibby being an exception.  it's always worked for me.  of course, it was the first aftermarket pickup that I bought, and it was stock in several of my earlier guitar purchases, so I built my tone/rig around it.

but I can see where people that might have started with another brand or another model might not take to it.  especially the newer ones that are made on the CNC winding machines.  the older 80s models seem to be a favorite with a lot of players, when compared to the newer ones.  I also have a double-creme nylon-bobbin The JB Model that was sent in to MJ and confirmed as being made by Seymour... even before knowing that part, it's a great sounding example.  less boom and less spike.  a little more character, and... offset coil resistance.


the CC was a mixed bag for me.  it seemed to work best for me in a brighter-sounding guitar.  in the end, there was just a little too much compression and thickness for what I was wanting from it.  seems like several players do like it.
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Offline daenius

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Re: Need a Dimarzio neck humbucker with bite under gain
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2017, 03:22:53 AM »
Interesting input guys!

I've never been fortunate enough to play one of the original JB models covered in DarthPhineas' blog, but certainly fortunate that the ones I have never failed me.

No idea if correlation at all, but all the JB's I've ever played were installed in Japanese-made guitars: MIJ ESPs, MIJ Jacksons, and Edwards Les Pauls... Would not be surprised if those guitars were built with specs that were meant to match with the JB, given that they are all high-end instruments sold as great out-of-the-box products. Wood is all over the place with alder, ash, mahogany, but there's variance among each species too so I suppose they prototyped it with a certain type of whatever with the JB and went "alright, we selling it with these parts together" and just goes to show that guitars... the whole is more than the sum of its parts.

I can see how the Gibsons didn't go well with it given that the bridge and the guitar wood and specs aren't really the same as the LP copies (they LOOK the same, but probably difference sources of mahogany, rosewood, and certainly different bridge hardware which also change the string tones a whole lot)

I've only ever had the Custom and I LOVE that pickup. It's aggressive, it's got a nice bit of openness, it's got depth, and all the while not being too harsh at all despite being ceramic.

Now Darth I have a question for you: Your homebrewed RG lookalike with a Gotoh Floyd is on the thumbnail for the official Duncan JB video right? WHAT IS THAT GUITAR! TELL ME ABOUT IT!! That blue + carbon fiber pickguard + Gotoh look totally caught my eye!

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Offline DarthPhineas

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Re: Need a Dimarzio neck humbucker with bite under gain
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2017, 05:18:18 PM »
[quote author]

Now Darth I have a question for you: Your homebrewed RG lookalike with a Gotoh Floyd is on the thumbnail for the official Duncan JB video right? WHAT IS THAT GUITAR! TELL ME ABOUT IT!! That blue + carbon fiber pickguard + Gotoh look totally caught my eye!
[/quote]

Thanks for the interest. Sorry, but that's not my guitar.



I do like your take on how wood can be all over the place. I have a maple body that sound more like you'd expect alder to sound. I have mahogany that's thick and mahogany that's bright. I have one poplar body that's at least as bright as maple. 
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Offline daenius

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Re: Need a Dimarzio neck humbucker with bite under gain
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2017, 05:03:43 AM »
[quote author]

Now Darth I have a question for you: Your homebrewed RG lookalike with a Gotoh Floyd is on the thumbnail for the official Duncan JB video right? WHAT IS THAT GUITAR! TELL ME ABOUT IT!! That blue + carbon fiber pickguard + Gotoh look totally caught my eye!

Thanks for the interest. Sorry, but that's not my guitar.



I do like your take on how wood can be all over the place. I have a maple body that sound more like you'd expect alder to sound. I have mahogany that's thick and mahogany that's bright. I have one poplar body that's at least as bright as maple.
[/quote]

Haha yeah I've noticed wood to be inconsistent (organic material, surprise surprise). Making several bodies and necks out of the exact same tree can yield you parts that are completely different with weight distribution and even density, especially for porous woods. Like you I have several guitars made out of the same wood and I could never go "yup, that's the mahogany/alder/ash/basswood doing work", especially with mahogany. I have 2 Gibsons that are pretty much identical everywhere, and one is very bright sounding and spanky, the other is rather mellow and reminds me of a 335.

Now here's something that I've been thinking about, although probably impossible to achieve: what if we could run an experiment where you first take a piece of alder and a piece of mahogany, make them have the EXACT same weight distribution (x-ray it and make sure every damn inch has the same amount of solid wood tissue) and density, and see how they sound compared to each other. Now take 2 pieces of the same species of wood, but make sure they are cut from very different parts of the tree with different density, and see how they compare to each other. Finally you then compare if the "similar density" alder and mahogany sound more similar, or if the "both mahogany but different parts of the tree" mahogany pieces sound more similar.

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Offline jmcorey

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Re: Need a Dimarzio neck humbucker with bite under gain
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2017, 04:42:11 PM »

I second the recommendation to change to a 500k volume control. To make the bridge pickup see a 250k load, add a 470k resistor (or two 1 meg resistors in parallel for 500k) from the bridge pickup's hot connection to ground.

Cheers Stephan

I am going to go through with this. 

Will adding the resistor from the bridge pickup to ground change the taper of the tone pot for the bridge pickup?

Joe

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Offline darkbluemurder

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Re: Need a Dimarzio neck humbucker with bite under gain
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2017, 05:33:17 AM »
Will adding the resistor from the bridge pickup to ground change the taper of the tone pot for the bridge pickup?

In theory, yes, since at lower settings the value between the signal and ground is low. At those settings the added resistor is relatively large and has less impact on the total resistance to ground. At higher settings the resistor has more impact. The formula to calculate the total resistance to ground is

Rt = (R1 x R2)/(R1+R2), where

R1 = resistance between volume pot output and ground, and
R2 = the added resistor.

Remember when taking the measurement of R1 to disconnect the pickup - its DC resistance is also in parallel to Rt, so leaving it connected fouls up the measurements.

In practice I have not noticed any substantial change in the pot travel/action (the taper itself stays the same).

Cheers Stephan
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Offline jmcorey

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Re: Need a Dimarzio neck humbucker with bite under gain
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2017, 02:00:26 PM »
In practice I have not noticed any substantial change in the pot travel/action (the taper itself stays the same).

Thanks, Stephan.  I will go ahead with this plan.  Change the volume pot and look for a difference in the neck humbucker high end.  If the bridge high end gets too high, then I will add a resistor.

Joe

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Offline jmcorey

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Re: Need a Dimarzio neck humbucker with bite under gain
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2017, 02:10:20 PM »
Well, I took the guitar to my local Music Go Round, and the guy asked me if I could wait in the store while he did the pot switch. Seriously.  He finished the whole job in 35 minutes.  No kidding. And they were tiny mini-pots that were difficult to do.  I was quite pleased.

The high end on both pickups really increased, and I'm thrilled that I can begin finding the right pickups for this guitar.  Really.  Thanks for the advice, everyone!

Joe