Pickups that have left you less than impressed?

  • 71 Replies
  • 62229 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

*

Luijo

  • Guest
Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2012, 10:54:15 PM »
Very interesting read, among many others around the net:
http://www.buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/index.htm
"Many people measure only the resistance and think they know something about a pickup. But this is a fundamental error. By far the most important quantity is the inductance, measured in Henries. It depends on the number of turns, the magnetic material in the coil, the winding density and the overall geometry of the coil. The resistance and the capacitance don´t have much influence and can be neglected in a first approximation."

*

Offline RayBarbeeMusic

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 1208
  • 57
    • View Profile
Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2012, 12:22:41 AM »
"No, it's not the voltage, its the current!"  "No, it's not the current, its the voltage!" 

Wrong.  It's both.

*

Offline Joey Voltage

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 52
  • 1
    • View Profile
Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2012, 01:05:21 AM »
Very interesting read, among many others around the net:
http://www.buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/index.htm
"Many people measure only the resistance and think they know something about a pickup. But this is a fundamental error. By far the most important quantity is the inductance, measured in Henries. It depends on the number of turns, the magnetic material in the coil, the winding density and the overall geometry of the coil. The resistance and the capacitance don´t have much influence and can be neglected in a first approximation."

I'm sorry dude but i just read it and that article makes it very apparent winding capacitance is very influential in the voice of pickup! And is half of the lc filter equation, it actually backs up my whole point! If you bothered to read what i have been trying to tell you! and it tells you can DRASTICALLY Affect the voice of The pickup by increasing capacitance, which can be done easily.  inductance alone CANNOT create an audio filter, a tuned tuned lc filter in this case, which is significant in voicing the pickup. Capacitance is NOT negligible, and is 50% of the resonance frequency equation... and the guy who wrote that states that as well if read.

You still need to differentiate between how a pickup "sounds", and how it "works" which are over lapping, but different things.  If you are talking about how a pickup functions as a self generating voltage source, capacitance doesn't need to be considered (which I never refuted).

However If you are talking about how a pickups "sounds" which I have been talking about the whole time, and in regards to its resonance frequencies, capacitance is NOT NEGLIGABLE! It is very significant as backed up by the article. It is mathematically half of what makes up the resonance freq.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 01:07:43 AM by Joey Voltage »

*

Offline Joey Voltage

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 52
  • 1
    • View Profile
Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2012, 01:24:38 AM »
"No, it's not the voltage, its the current!"  "No, it's not the current, its the voltage!" 

Wrong.  It's both.
I know you are being anecdotal, but it really does depend on context. 

*

Luijo

  • Guest
Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2012, 01:27:22 AM »
Back to square one, I've NEVER said is not important, just that inductance is FAR more important...that's all. You keep doing circles around the point that there are other important things, which I don't deny, just that there is one aspect that is far more important in this particular case. And as you'd just said, it does depend on the context.
If you want to keep dragging this on is fine with me, but this is done for me.
There are more things to discuss that just running around this thread and hijacking it more than it already is.

*

Offline Joey Voltage

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 52
  • 1
    • View Profile
Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2012, 03:55:57 AM »
Back to square one, I've NEVER said is not important,
I believe you made a blanket statement and said it was a negligible factor ;), which is indeed not true, And in terms of the resonance frequency - something that is pretty significant, it is pretty important (which is the only thing I have been talking about).  You were pretty quick to say that capacitance was insignificant enough that it shouldn't be botherd with, and yet the article you yourself posted encourages the exact opposite to significantly alter the pickups tone.

just that inductance is FAR more important...that's all. You keep doing circles around the point that there are other important things, which I don't deny, just that there is one aspect that is far more important in this particular case. And as you'd just said, it does depend on the context.

But thats the thing, In What particular case? Determining the resonance frequency? What contexts concerning the pickup did you elaborate on?  Whether you want to own up to it or not, you really did make a sweeping statement and spoke in absolutes with out elaboration, and tried to discredit something that is pretty important, which is the only thing in this banter I really have issue with.  What I mean it's all in how you approach it, and you can't quote things in an article, that are conditional and need context, in order to spin things.  For example the quote you used from the article.  Why is capacitance negligible in a first approximation? Well if we are simply talking about a first approximation of what a pickup is/does on a functional basis in terms of an amplifying device - a voltage source into a resistive load, we're more interested in in transfer characteristics, not interested time constants/frequency response. So if your argument is only that inductance is the most influential aspect? Absolutely because it affects both realms.  Is your argument capacitance is neglegable as a blanket statement, because inductance is important? Hell no! it is extremely significant, especially for what I have been talking about the whole time, the article your posted reinforces this too.

 Anyway I'm done too!

*

Offline RayBarbeeMusic

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 1208
  • 57
    • View Profile
Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2012, 01:36:58 AM »
Quote
I know you are being anecdotal, but it really does depend on context. 


No, I'm using an analogy to indicate that I think you are both missing the point.  ALL those things matter, inductance, capacitance, resistance, etc. 

I mod tube amp circuits.  I have thousands and thousands of hours actually in the circuit learning what the affect of this or that is.  Everything matters. 

As for capacitance, I've had EEs swear to my face that you can't hear a 100pf cap.  My response is always the same, which is to pull the largest bill in my wallet out and put it on the table, and say, "wanna bet?".  Of course you can hear 100pf, and feel it, easily.   Thats the difference between thousands of hours actually doing it, and "I think based on what i read in a book and by best guess that.......". 

*

LonePhantom

  • Guest
Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2012, 07:48:24 PM »
Talk about going off topic!!!! What was this thread about again??? :lol:

*

Luijo

  • Guest
Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2012, 09:31:32 PM »
LOL!!!  ;D
Sorrry!  :-[

*

Offline Joey Voltage

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 52
  • 1
    • View Profile
Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2012, 10:42:24 PM »

No, I'm using an analogy to indicate that I think you are both missing the point.  ALL those things matter, inductance, capacitance, resistance, etc. 

Actually my point was more about context lol! And regarding specifically the resonance frequency.  Luijo was absolutely right about capacitance being neglegable but only on a conditional basis - when discussing how a pickup acts as a first approximation of transferring energy from the strings and producing an alternating voltage across a resistive load,  but its a very wrong statement if you are making a blanket statement, especially considering a second approximation about its significance to the eq of the pickup, and where the energy gets focused, in which winding capacitance is extremely significant, as inductance as a calculated value by itself can't make the pickup sound like anything.   That article he posted does do a very good job of explaining this though.

What would a pickup sound like with a 9h inductance and a 0.1pf winding capacitance?  That being a scenario where winding capacitance is truley neglegible.  Just what would that sound like?

I mod tube amp circuits.  I have thousands and thousands of hours actually in the circuit learning what the affect of this or that is.  Everything matters. 
Me too! Wanna share some build porn?

As for capacitance, I've had EEs swear to my face that you can't hear a 100pf cap.  My response is always the same, which is to pull the largest bill in my wallet out and put it on the table, and say, "wanna bet?".  Of course you can hear 100pf, and feel it, easily.   Thats the difference between thousands of hours actually doing it, and "I think based on what i read in a book and by best guess that.......".
Well You have to Establish a context for that too to be honest, and not even with just the obvious.  The obvious being Say you have a source impedance of 500k (the junction of a two 1M voltage divider with have about this) and you place a 100pf capacitor from that junction to the return (because I hate the term ground) 100pf is very significant, because not withstanding any other phase shifts you get a first order lowpass filter that is -3db at 3.2k.  but say you are talking 100 ohms, 100pf won't be "directly" audible in the same context because the filter produced is outside the range of human hearing, and an engineer will take that as a "must be Inaudible" gospel, but psycoacoustics are a bitch that way, and not everything is as cut and dry - switch mode power supplies, although the junk they kick up is at very high frequencies will have an audible effect on  a guitar tube amp say which often operates at a pretty narrow frequency range.  One thing I do agree with though is that if the effect is real, it can be measured.

*

Offline Joey Voltage

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 52
  • 1
    • View Profile
Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2012, 10:45:37 PM »
Talk about going off topic!!!! What was this thread about again??? :lol:

Dude I dunno anymore, other than two assholes arguing about something nobody else on here cares about.

*

crguti

  • Guest
Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2012, 05:15:55 AM »
^ one of them is you.

*

Offline Mail2JackButler

  • Dimarzio Endorsee
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 370
  • 14
    • View Profile
Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2012, 08:28:30 AM »
EMGs.. the JB (I don't hate the way it sounds.. it just always and only sounds like 1985 to me,, I don't find it particularly flexible.. which is fine if you only want THAT sound)... Steve's Special (just doesn't work for me).. Air Norton (just not a fan)..HS2 (again just not a fan).
"Intelli-Shred" & "Arpeggio Madness" books  available from NGW!
www.guitarworkshop.com/books/guitarbooks/rock/intellishreddillar
DiMarzio Endorsed Artist: Kevin Dillard. Soundclips available at
www.dimarzio.com
www.myspace.com/intellishred
Morley Endorsee
http://www.morleypedals.com/fom.html

*

Offline Joey Voltage

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 52
  • 1
    • View Profile
Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2012, 04:02:40 PM »
^ one of them is you.

LOL! I'm fully aware.  I'm also realizing this probably isn't the place for anything overly technical either.  might have served a better purpose over at MEF.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 04:06:22 PM by Joey Voltage »

*

Offline idsnowdog

  • Newbie
  • *
  • 20
  • 3
  • Imperator of Indignation
    • View Profile
Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2012, 03:35:38 PM »
Screamin Demon - It sounds great with low gain but sounds honky with high gain.  I think it is poorly described and marketed.  Oddly enough with a ceramic magnet it sounds a lot like a Super II.

Pearly Gates - A PAF with laryngitis.  Way too bright and the bass was farty.

Air Norton - Raspy and bright.  It would make a decent neck pickup for a JB but is way too bright for bridge.

HFH - I didn't like it for a long time until I tried it with a maple neck.  It is not the radical corrective surgery that it is billed to be.  With ebony and rosewood it sounds dark and weak.

Megadrive - Sounds a lot like a passive EMG81.  Unimpressive overall.

EMG81 - It just felt fake.