Pickups that have left you less than impressed?

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LonePhantom

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Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2012, 11:16:31 PM »
It's funny the comments people make on the JB. It was designed to be used with 250K pots, so with 500K you will get bright and nasely tones.

Use a 250K and you get the sort of tone you would expect. That's why I came up with the two stage potentiometer. Just tried it out on the weekend with a JB (finally), and it's subtle, but the 250K does give a better low end response, and the mids are tamed enough. That classic sound is there.

The Tone Zone in basswood (stock) was a little too much for me. The low end was just too muddy. The mods I tried out and documented made it better, but it still wasn't quite enough. It's a whole other story in alder though. I absolutely love it!

PAF Pro in the bridge has a great tone, but just too weak for me. I can see why  it was popular back in the late eighties though. Throw it in the neck and it's magic though. A8 magnet swap in either position is awesome though.

I'm still making up my mind on the Air Norton. I like it enough, but not sure if it's one of "the ones".

Dominion neck and bridge - my current favourites. They just suit the music I play so well. Tight, defined, articulate, heavy.

Just loaded up the JB and 59 over the weekend to write about for the SD blog. I'm digging them so far.  I can see why they are a popular combo, they are just so versatile.

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Offline Marshall Law

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Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2012, 07:20:59 PM »

 Lone phantom is the guy that helped me love the tone zone,he has a cap mod that rolls off the real big low end of the tone zone and it is great if you think the TZ is too bassy in your guitar.

you can take that mod even further if you dont use your tone pot. 

regarding the JB you can also try and move the voicing by increasing it intrinsic coil capacitance, (self capacitance/parasitic capacitance).  I mentioned the process in the D Activator thread, and you can also make it adjustable too, as well as test out many different values with a few alligator clips.  probably will work better for a jb since it has mirror coils to the best of my knowledge, and not dual res.

There are other things you can do as well to passively alter things,  as well as actively,  although most people  don't like to fuss with batteries

How do you change the capacitance? by adding metal in the pu like the Virtual vintage design?

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Luijo

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Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2012, 07:58:20 PM »
You change inductance that way, not capacitance.
For all intent and purposes capacitance in a guitar PU is negligible. You can tinker a little with that but the biggest factor, being a coil, is inductance.
You do get capacitance in the form of the proximity of each turn of wire to the next but if you look around for real detailed PU specs capacitance is minimal.

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Offline Joey Voltage

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Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2012, 09:11:48 PM »

For all intent and purposes capacitance in a guitar PU is negligible. You can tinker a little with that but the biggest factor, being a coil, is inductance.
You do get capacitance in the form of the proximity of each turn of wire to the next but if you look around for real detailed PU specs capacitance is minimal.

Keep in mind Inductance is only one factor as well!, be it a guitar pickup, or output transformer.  in a guitar pickup capacitance, equivalent series resistance, and inductance all work together in creating a tank circuit (LCR filter), the equivalent series resistance more effects the Q of the filter.  For all intents and purposes these factors are what gives the pickup (more accurately each coil, the values of which are then determined depending on how you connect the coils) its resonance frequency, (frequencies in the case of the dual resonance designs).  Artificially increasing capacitance just as increasing inductance will shift the resonance frequency lower.  increasing composite winding capacitance is exactly what a tone control does, only a tone control does so drastically because a very high value of capacitance is typically used for a tone control, shifting the resonance frequency way low.  In real life it's gets more complicated, but thats the basics

You change inductance that way, not capacitance.

Exactly, the logic is the same, and in the case of the virtual vintage tech, to increase one parameter only without the others being affected in the process.  It's not as simple as that, but that is the hope.  The same applies again to audio transformer design since I used it as an example above.  one way to increase primary inductance without having to increase turns in an audio output transformer (applies to all transformers not just output) is to add more metal - increase the number of laminates in the stack, but it only goes so far. I can elaborate more if anybody wants
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 09:30:23 PM by Joey Voltage »

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Luijo

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Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2012, 09:39:32 PM »
As I said in my earlier post all of them are factors, but being a PU a pair of coils the main factor in it is its inductance, since it is an inductive circuit, not a capacitive one. That's one of the reasons pole piece material and shape as well as some extra metal in the coils like the DMZ V V technology have such an effect in the sound of PUs. You don't see manufacturers tinkering with caps inside PUs for that same reason, although you could use them as filters like other guys around here to mod the TZ.
Being so is the reason some manufacturers publish inductance values for their products but none of them publish capacitance values. The most common published figure is the resistance values as it is a figure most people can relate to and can measure with equipment easy to have access to, not the case with inductance since it requires a very specific meter, like the Extech LCR meter which is commonly used by boutique winders  for quality control of their products and experimentation.
Capacitors in a tone control don't increase "composite winding capacitance", they just shunt highs to ground and the pot controls how much of the original signal you send through it. In fact, the tone control cap is isolated from the capacitance of the windings by the value of the tone pot itself in the most common wiring used.
Please explain more about the real life complications on this matter, being an electrical engineer myself for over 20 years I'm quite interested in the subject.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 12:05:32 AM by Luijo »

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Offline Joey Voltage

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Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2012, 02:22:54 AM »
being an electrical engineer myself for over 20 years I'm quite interested in the subject.
Cool! what discipline of EE?
As I said in my earlier post all of them are factors, but being a PU a pair of coils the main factor in it is its inductance, since it is an inductive circuit, not a capacitive one.
Capacitive, inductive, both play a role and since we are primarily concerned with how it is applicable to AC it is a "reactive" circuit.  Inductance alone cant determine everything, it is merely one piece, or one note of the triad (did I just go there?, that was dorky!)

That's one of the reasons pole piece material and shape as well as some extra metal in the coils like the DMZ V V technology have such an effect in the sound of PUs. You don't see manufacturers tinkering with caps inside PUs for that same reason,

Well one reason: internal inclusion of a physical capacitor is not really practical nor discrete :) - not exactly an easy thing to physically include/encase. two that being said, and like I said earlier inductance is the easier of the three parameters to physically control within the case size without affecting the other three, and more importantly one you can be sneaky and discrete about ;D.  you have a couple of choices, you can increase inductance by increasing turns, which means you have use thinner wire, for the same physical coil size, but this as a side effect also more drastically changes the other two of the three parameters, both DCR, and capacitance increases which also affects the resonance peak frequency and q, - it's not so easy to control this way, you traded one for the other.  by comparison, increasing more surface area, or more metal, you can effectively increase the inductance for a given coil without increasing turns, or resorting to thinner wire to do so. 

although you could use them as filters like other guys around here to mod the TZ.
Being so is the reason some manufacturers publish inductance values for their products but none of them publish capacitance values. The most common published figure is the resistance values as it is a figure most people can relate to and can measure with equipment easy to have access to, not the case with inductance since it requires a very specific meter, like the Extech LCR meter which is commonly used by boutique winders  for quality control of their products and experimentation.
True, most publish the DCR as it is the most easily relate-able to the end user, and an easy test for anomalies or partial shorts but this is probably by the same token the most useless parameter to give an idea of how something is behaving in context especially if we are talking about reactive context, and MORE importantly how it sounds musically!.  It doesn't tell you a whole lot in reality by itself, just as much as the DC resistance of a speaker tells you.  Most inductance meters will also just measure DC inductance which is no use to us, it will be several times higher to AC.




Capacitors in a tone control don't increase "composite winding capacitance", they just shunt highs to ground and the pot controls how much of the original signal you send through it.
what does AC really see's in this scenario? (small signal ac really does apply!) the pot controls how much of the cap is isolated from the coil, the fact that ts grounded is irrelevant. the resistance between the cap, and the coil retards the caps effect because to AC the resistor is still the higher impedance path, since to anything above the reactive time constant created by the cap and resistance the cap looks like a dead short (one of the reasons tone controls load your signal by virtue of being connected). what happens when the pot is fully clockwise?, the capacitor is in parallel directly across the coils.

I can simulate this part in spice if you wish and post the results, if you think it will help others or the cause at all since the small signal AC will hold up well in sim. not necessarily the losses part due to materials though, which is not so easy for.  The TZ bass mod is not exactly the same thing, that Is just a simple first order high pass filter because of it's position.

In fact, the tone control cap is isolated from the capacitance of the windings by the value of the tone pot itself in the most common wiring used.
Not as easy as that, you have to examine what AC REALLY see's in this scenario through various sweeps in the pot, which is not as cut and dry.

Please explain more about the real life complications on this matter,

Sure.  You touched on it yourself, its not as cut and dry.  the physical properties make a difference as do the materials used.  magnetomotive properties of the assembly have an effect on the real life empirical result as you mentioned,  especially regarding tone which is what we are concerned about really.  I have seen some actually measure the losses in the brass base plate dimarzio uses, and have deemed it a contributing factor. 
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 02:30:17 AM by Joey Voltage »

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Luijo

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Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2012, 12:35:50 PM »
If you sit down and read your own words we're back where we started, and one of the things I said in my first post and you seem to have passed by..
Being this the type of circuit it is, and no matter how many words and spins you throw at it, inductance is still the biggest and most important factor. I didn't say anywhere capacitance doesn't matter, just that it is negligible in this particular case since this is a coil and we're looking at the coil per se and in this case the effect of capacitance in the final product is very little. If you want to focus on the peripherals sure there are other things that influence the result, but that's equal to having a discussion about turbos in cars and ending up talking about aerodynamics...of course both things make the car go faster, but the topic is turbos.
BTW, serious winders use meters that use AC to measure inductance, like the one I mentioned before.

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Offline Joey Voltage

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Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2012, 04:16:59 PM »
If you sit down and read your own words we're back where we started, and one of the things I said in my first post and you seem to have passed by..
How so?, I don't believe I'm overlooking what you said, but by the same accord I don't think you understand what I'm saying, or trying to convey.  I'm talking about the primary eq curve of the pickup which is fundamentally dependent  on its resonance frequency(ies), which is an equal product of both coil inductance and self capacitance (winding capacitance).  you cant have the resonance frequency without the capacitance.   I am perfectly willing to run Spice simulations as a visual because they WILL show the fundamental of whats going on.  Losses in the metal parts, and the effect of the magnet not withstanding.  I'm also perfectly willing to scheme out small signal ac models of what goes on externally.  A pickup is not a complicated device, but at the same token it's not just flatly representing what it's picking  up from the strings either.

Being this the type of circuit it is, and no matter how many words and spins you throw at it, inductance is still the biggest and most important factor. I didn't say anywhere capacitance doesn't matter, just that it is negligible in this particular case since this is a coil and we're looking at the coil per se and in this case the effect of capacitance in the final product is very little.
NO it's NOT! 100pf - 200pf like what is found typically in not negligible. The capacitance is an equal in determining the resonance frequency of the coil, Inductance alone, or in conjunction with current generated by moving strings cannot produce an audio filter of any kind.  It's correctly called a reactive circuit, Since we are interested in frequency response at least thats what I'm talking about, we need to look at how it behaves in the AC realm.

If you want to focus on the peripherals sure there are other things that influence the result, but that's equal to having a discussion about turbos in cars and ending up talking about aerodynamics...of course both things make the car go faster, but the topic is turbos.
I'm Simply talking about the resonance frequency which is a tuned filter fundamentally made up of the the inductance and capacitance, and can be influenced externally.  Neither of them are more important than the other when simply talking about the oscillating frequency

breaking it down to a basic level, you can have an inductance of 9h, and a self capacitance of 100pf, and have a resonance frequency of 5Kh as a result.  likewise you can have an inductance of 18H, and a capacitance of 50p and still have the same.

you can have an inductance of 9h 100pf coil , and externally increase capacitance to 200p and you will get 3.8Khz resonance frequency, just as you can have 9H 100pf coil, and increase inductance to 18H, and get the same frequency. both as well as internal and external factors will have an effect on the Q of this circuit, however thats best left out right now.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 04:23:08 PM by Joey Voltage »

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Luijo

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Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2012, 05:41:42 PM »
You're missing the main point dude and no matter how many terms and words and formulas you try to throw at it we're back to the same point...capacitance's influence in the case of guitar's PU in minimal compared to other factors.
I'm not saying you are wrong I'm just saying that you're putting too much weight into it.
You can add external inductance, resistance and capacitance (like the Bill Lawrence thingy) but we're still talking about the PU and it's main defining characteristic...it's inductance.

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Offline mystique1

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Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2012, 06:00:45 PM »
+2 on the Cruiser neck. Low output and lacking any sparkle at all.
I've liked all the other DiMarzios I've had though.

Being a Strat player I've tried lots of Noiseless pups.

The Seymour Duncan Everything Axe set was very disappointing, and their Hot Rails too.
All were kinda ok with high gain, but sounded dreadful clean including the Duckbucker.

Fender Vintage Noiseless very thin and weak sounding, Hot Noiseless had harsh upper mids that actually hurt my ears at high volumes, and the SCN's sounded just plain dead.

Used the Gold Lace Sensors on my Strat Plus very happily for many years, but when I tried their new type of Golds, and Hot Golds they seemed weak in output in comparison.

Am very happy with the Virtual Solo/Area 58/Area 58, combination I use now!




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Offline Joey Voltage

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Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2012, 06:54:56 PM »
You're missing the main point dude and no matter how many terms and words and formulas you try to throw at it we're back to the same point
I would say the exact same thing to you, you seem to be missing what I'm really talking about! LOL!  Im not talking about the pickup as if it were a pie chart!.  I'm talking about the just the resonance frequency as dictated only by the coil inductance, and inter winding capacitance.

...capacitance's influence in the case of guitar's PU in minimal compared to other factors.
Having a direct influence on the resonance frequency of the coil, One the biggest aspects that makes up the pickups "Voice" I would say that it's more substantial than your making it out to be.  Negligible is not the word I would use for it.  Plus it is one of the few things the end user easily has control over without dissecting anything.

I'm not saying you are wrong I'm just saying that you're putting too much weight into it.
You can add external inductance, resistance and capacitance (like the Bill Lawrence thingy) but we're still talking about the PU and it's main defining characteristic...it's inductance.

I'm talking about what you can do externally to easily adjust one parameter in order to change a fairly significant aspect of the voice.  Adding capacitance in parallel with the coil will shift (and can do so significantly) the resonance frequency down that cant be refuted.  Thats all I'm sayin'.  It's a mod worth trying.

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Offline Jerryman

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Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2012, 04:46:47 AM »
Jazz Neck is one pickup I didnt like. Can't remember why.
I might dry the D-sonic. Right now I have the Crunch Lab in my Jackson  Soloist. Not sure more organic is really what I want in that particular guitar.
I do have an Invader laying around. Is it still the "mud Bomb" even in the bridge of a tremolo.
I don't think a JB is what I like either, even with 250K pots to roll off some of that brittle high end, its missing low end .Good pickup for live mix, but otherwise I'm going to try Ed'd Breed with pickup swap idea.
Dimebucker is great Alder brass block floyd rose  bridge jackson explorer, but can really cut your head off with the treble in other guitars.
Duncan classic stacks were good classic  sounding noiseless strat pickups, but the bottom fell off on one I had paid 75 bucks for, so I ditched the other two quick like.
Much prefer the line of Dimarzio high output singles and humbucker pickups in general..Duncans , with a few exceptions, can really tend to be too bright I think.



The Norton won't tame anything.  A fantastic pickup, it will make your LP sound like a wild mongoose who is piloting a F-22 raptor and smoking crystal meth

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MarvinMealer

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Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2012, 03:09:16 PM »
I love my PAF Pro in my HSS Strat paired with area 67's.  They balance well together.  I'm not sure I'd like the Paf Pro in another guitar like an LP or Jackson.

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Offline RayBarbeeMusic

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Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2012, 05:59:53 PM »
Pickups I truly hated:

1) Anything made by EMG.  I know some people love them.  I can't stand them.  I've had them, I've tried to figure out what the appeal is, and I just cannot hear anything appealing there. 

2) Duncan Pearly Gates.  Yuck.  One of the most bland pickups I've ever tried.  It was to tone what eating cardboard is to taste.

3) Dimarzio Super Distortion.  I know a lot of folks seem to love it, I just didn't.  It wasn't nearly as bad as a PG or EMG, but it just didn't have anything I liked about it and given the hype, I expected to like it just a little. 

By the way, 100pf to 250pf isn't insignificant. 

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Offline Joey Voltage

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Re: Pickups that have left you less than impressed?
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2012, 09:16:38 PM »

By the way, 100pf to 250pf isn't insignificant.

 ;) do I  get the neener neener neener rights now?